Posted on 11/28/2004 3:42:04 PM PST by AskStPhilomena
"A modernist priest once told me that because God is infinite - God is in hell and hell is in God.
According to this modernist wacko, to think otherwise is to deny the infinity of God."
Yes, too many clerics today are woefully ignorant on mathematics.
There are many types of infinity, and infinite number of types, in fact. Some infinite stes are what are called 'bounded infinite sets' meaning that though they are infinite in size, there are elements not included in the set.
An example would be the set of whole numberrs which does not include ALL fractional numbers, or the st of even numbers which do not include the odd numbers.
That cleric was accepting a heretical notion due to a miscomprehension of a mathematical definition.
How strange.
1) Panthiesm - "the world is part of God"
This includes Native American belief systems, Wicca, Gaia worship, animism, etc. Virtue and sin are not part of these systems since one can never be separated from God, you are a part of God. Everthing that exists is a reflection of God. This is expressed in Platonic philsophy
"Plato held that both abstract ideas like "love" and "truth" and concrete things like "horse" or "table" were earthly manifestations of certain "archetypes" or "universals." Thus, we are men because we partake of the Universal "Man."
For Plato, these Universals subsist in a supernal realm of their own, of which this one is a mere reflexion --- even as the things in it are reflexions of the Universals."
Cycles of birth and rebirth, reincarnation and magic are common features of these belief systems
2)Polytheism - "God is part of the world"
Egyptian myths, Greco/Roman mythology, Hinduism, Norse paganism, Babylon, Sumeria etc.
This is expressed in Aristolean philsophy:
"Aristotle, however, was a materialist --- he believed that matter was self-existent, with neither beginning nor end, and that there is no personal God. For him, although the Universals are real in a sense, they derive their reality from the sum total of their physical manifestations. In other words, where Plato would teach that horses are horses because they reflect "Horse," Aristotle held that "Horse" is "Horse" because it reflects horses. "
Virtue and sin are not part of these systems since no one can never be united with the gods, they can only be appeased. Gods reflect human characteristics (hate, fear, jealousy,vanity, etc.) and are assigned different areas of control. Gods are not omniscent or omnipotent.
3) Monotheism - "God created the world, everything in it, is perfectly Good, omnipotent and omniscent"
The Jewish tradition is unique. They were the first to ascribe perfect virtue to God and therefore created the idea that one could be seperated or united with Him as a consequence of one's actions.
Obviously, Christianity came from the Jewish tradition as did Islam
For although a Christian man instructed only in ecclesiastical literature may perhaps be ignorant of the very name of Platonists, and may not even know that there have existed two schools of philosophers speaking the Greek tongue, to wit, the Ionic and Italic, he is nevertheless not so deaf with respect to human affairs, as not to know that philosophers profess the study, and even the possession, of wisdom. He is on his guard, however, with respect to those who philosophize according to the elements of this world, not according to God, by whom the world itself was made; for he is warned by the precept of the apostle, and faithfully hears what has been said, "Beware that no one deceive you through philosophy and vain deceit, according to the elements of the world."7 Then, that he may not suppose that all philosophers are such as do this, he hears the same apostle say concerning certain of them, "Because that which is known of God is manifest among them, for God has manifested it to them. For His invisible things from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things which are made, also His eternal power and Godhead."8 And, when speaking to the Athenians, after having spoken a mighty thing concerning God, which few are able to understand, "In Him we live, and move, and have our being,"9 he goes on to say, "As certain also of your own have said." He knows well, too, to be on his guard against even these philosophers in their errors. For where it has been said by him, "that God has manifested to them by those things which are made His invisible things, that they might be seen by the understanding," there it has also been said that they did not rightly worship God Himself, because they paid divine honors, which are due to Him alone, to other things also to which they ought not to have paid them,-"because, knowing God, they glorified Him not as God: neither were thankful, but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of corruptible man, and of birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things;"10 -where the apostle would have us understand him as meaning the Romans, and Greeks, and Egyptians, who gloried in the name of wisdom; but concerning this we will dispute with them afterwards. With respect, however, to that wherein they agree with us we prefer them to all others namely, concerning the one God, the author of this universe, who is not only above every body, being incorporeal, but also above all souls, being incorruptible-our principle, our light, our good. And though the Christian man, being ignorant of their writings, does not use in disputation words which he has not learned,-not calling that part of philosophy natural (which is the Latin term), or physical which is the Greek one), which treats of the investigation of nature; or that part rational, or logical, which deals with the question how truth may be discovered; or that part moral, or ethical, which concerns morals, and shows how good is to be sought, and evil to be shunned,-he is not, therefore, ignorant that it is from the one true and supremely good God that we have that nature in which we are made in the image of God, and that doctrine by which we know Him and ourselves, and that grace through which, by cleaving to Him, we are blessed. This, therefore, is the cause why we prefer these to all the others, because, whilst other philosophers have worn out their minds and powers in seeking the causes of things, and endeavoring to discover the right mode of learning and of living, these, by knowing God, have found where resides the cause by which the universe has been constituted, and the light by which truth is to be discovered, and the fountain at which felicity is to be drunk. All philosophers, then, who have had these thoughts concerning God, whether Platonists or others, agree with us. But we have thought it better to plead our cause with the Platonists, because their writings are better known. For the Greeks, whose tongue holds the highest place among the languages of the Gentiles, are loud in their praises of these writings; and the Latins, taken with their excellence, or their renown, have studied them more heartily than other writings, and, by translating them into our tongue, have given them greater celebrity and notoriety.
*Augustine references Acts 17:28
For in him we live and move and are: as some also of your own poets said: For we are also his offspring.
*The poets/poems referenced are Cleanthes' Hymn to Zeus and the Phaenomena of Aratus which illustrates the Biblical example of Ecumenism. If Paul can reference and recognize the truth existing in those outside the early Church, who then can complain about the evils of Ecumenism which cites the objective truths observed in those outside the visible church of today. Ecumenism is Tradition.
Is the God of Israel a false god as well?
I prefer to say that Christians and Jews worship the same God, but we differ in our beliefs about certain aspects of His nature.
See post 55 by broadsword.
The God of Christianity is not the God of Islam.
So there is more than one?
There is but one True God, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. There are many false gods, otherwise known as demons.
When you state something like this, you are voicing a belief, rather than a demonstrable fact (that's why we call it "faith"). It is no more or less provable than my saying, "there is but One True God, YHWH, One in Person (hypostasis) and One in Being (ousia)" (to use the Cappadocian definition of the Greek terms).
God has revealed Himself as such, and to accept the testimony of the One who can neither deceive nor be deceived is quite reasonable.
So there is more than one?
Do Muslims worship the Holy Trinity?
That again is entirely a matter of belief.
The answer to the question of whether the islamists believe in the same God as Catholics, Baptists, and all other Christians believe is the one and only true God, came directly from "Allah" himself in the form of a short chapter of the Quran. This is chapter 112 which reads:
"In the name of God (Allah), the Merciful, the Compassionate. Say (O Muhammad) He is God the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone."
All Christian faiths believe that Jesus was the begotten son of God and further believe that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." [John 3:16] The true God sacrificed His only Son so that we, who put our faith in His Son, will not spend eternity separated from Him.
The Catholic Church holds that Jesus was the Son of God and died on the cross for us. This is the dogma of the Church. This Bishop's statement renounces the dogma of the Church and proves that he is a heretic and such he is to be condemned and excommunicated.
"The Jewish tradition is unique. They were the first to ascribe perfect virtue to God and therefore created the idea that one could be seperated or united with Him as a consequence of one's actions.
Obviously, Christianity came from the Jewish tradition as did Islam."
I agree with you, and I appologize if I gave you any other impression.
It works for me. (and I didn't send you a hostile email.)
I agree with you.
Do they have a special excommunication for the stupid as opposed to the heretical?
That's not answering the question.
You wrote, "The God of Christianity is not the God of Islam." So I asked, "So there is more than one?"
Is there one God or many?
The statements after the statement on the Muslims clarifies
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.
Ecumenism is about recognizing points of agreement with other faiths, instead of just shouting at each other "Your wrong!"
The CCC makes the point explicitly:
2105 The duty of offering God genuine worship concerns man both individually and socially. This is "the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ." By constantly evangelizing men, the Church works toward enabling them "to infuse the Christian spirit into the mentality and mores, laws and structures of the communities in which [they] live." The social duty of Christians is to respect and awaken in each man the love of the true and the good. It requires them to make known the worship of the one true religion which subsists in the Catholic and apostolic Church. Christians are called to be the light of the world. Thus, the Church shows forth the kingship of Christ over all creation and in particular over human societies.
To The Muslims, Mohammed is a prophet. Much as Jesus is a prophet to the Christians. Allah is the name they have given to their God.
"I used to be a Catholic, before I became a Christian."
Which sect do you belong, and who is the founder of it?
"The Jews, and the Christians believe in the same God."
Actually, the Scriptures are quite clear on this (especially John's Gospel)- you cannot honor/worship/recognize the Father without the Son. Jesus said the Pharisee's father was the devil. Not because they were hippocrites, but because they did not recognize Jesus as God.
A lot that was preceding this was possibly valid, and no doubt there are muslims who can live and let live. But the vast majority do not as one condem these acts and turn in the evil doers. Christianity and Judaism had ruthless periods and have gotton over them and would in fact denounce anyong raging war in the name of religion. As I said, the silence (and lack of action) by the muslims living in the west (and even in the Middle East) is surprising. Even the savage murder of muslims who cooperate with the US in Iraq is not enough to cause a massive retaliation against the radical elements. I could see the war in Iraq over in a week if this article had any sense of validity. I will count out a week and see if we all worship the same one G-d.
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