All Souls Day and final destinations

Denver Catholic Register ^ | 27 October 2004 | Most Rev. Charles J.Chaput

[Californiajones]

Well, I won't be praying for the dead, that's for sure. Kinda scary stuff. The Bible speaks against this -- it's called necromancy. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (don't see any mention of "purgatory" in this Pauline verse).

But for the departed heroes of the faith and of this nation, the best prayer I can think of is for their families and for God's glory to once again be held up over this God-kissed nation of ours. And don't forget to be praying for this election!

Our purpose on earth is to bring the kingdom's rule and reign to earth -- not to worry, wonder, pontificate or pray for the dead. "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven". Jesus said "Let the dead bury their dead". It's over once we die. The dead set a course for heaven or hell that can't be altered once they pass over -- and the dead cannot 'intercede" for the living on earth. Sorry -- that's Jesus's job and position with the advocacy of the Holy Spirit.

We Christians on earth are already "saints" because of His shed blood for us on the Cross-- so praying for the dead (even if they have been named "Saints" by the C. Church) is scary, weird and unnecessary. What would Jesus do? He certainly wouldn't advocate praying to his mom, who admits in her Magnificat that she is a sinner in need of a savior.

[A.A. Cunningham]

You are ignorant of Scripture.

[Campion]

The Bible speaks against this -- it's called necromancy.

Necromancy is conjuring up dead people's ghosts for the purpose of fortune-telling. I have no idea why you think that has anything to do with praying to God on behalf of a dead Christian brother or sister. Do you?

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"

Nice of you to invent "Scripture," but that isn't what the verse says. Paul says he would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord, but he makes no claim that the first necessarily implies the second, not even for himself.

[Campion]

The Bible speaks against this -- it's called necromancy.

Necromancy is conjuring up dead people's ghosts for the purpose of fortune-telling. I have no idea why you think that has anything to do with praying to God on behalf of a dead Christian brother or sister. Do you?

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"

Nice of you to invent "Scripture," but that isn't what the verse says. Paul says he would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord, but he makes no claim that the first necessarily implies the second, not even for himself.

[Campion]

The Bible speaks against this -- it's called necromancy.

Necromancy is conjuring up dead people's ghosts for the purpose of fortune-telling. I have no idea why you think that has anything to do with praying to God on behalf of a dead Christian brother or sister. Do you?

"To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"

Nice of you to invent "Scripture," but that isn't what the verse says. Paul says he would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord, but he makes no claim that the first necessarily implies the second, not even for himself.

[Grey Ghost II]

He certainly wouldn't advocate praying to his mom, who admits in her Magnificat that she is a sinner

Where does the Blessed Mother acknowledge she is a sinner?

The Magnificat

My soul doth magnify the Lord:

And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior.

Because He hath regarded the lowliness of His Handmaid:

for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

For He that is mighty hath done great things to me: and holy is His Name.

And His mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear Him.

He hath showed might with His arm:

He hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart.

He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the lowly.

He hath filled the hungry with good things: and the rich He hath sent empty away.

He hath received Israel His servant, being mindful of His mercy;

As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed forever.

[Californiajones]

"My spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior."

To rejoice in her Savior, means she acknowledges she is a sinner in need of salvation, i.e. needs a Savior to save her from her deserved destination -- Hell. (Where we all would be BUT for the saving Blood of Christ.)

To be saved implies there is something she needs to be saved from. If she was sinless, she would not need the Savior and therefore her spirit would have no need for rejoicing.

[Grey Ghost II]

To rejoice in her Savior, means she acknowledges she is a sinner in need of salvation

You are really stretching it here. You make me laugh.

[F16Fighter]

The purification of Purgatory.

Call me a cynic, but I believe Christ's sacrifice was "purification" for believers.

[Thinkin' Gal]

All Souls Day and final destinations

Next Tuesday, Nov. 2, is more than Election Day... <<<

[Campion]

To be saved implies there is something she needs to be saved from. If she was sinless, she would not need the Savior

Think carefully about your logic. How do Catholics think Mary became sinless? By her own effort? Because she was so good-looking? No, by the foreseen application of the merits of her crucified Son. That's dogma, a Catholic who denies it is properly called a heretic.

So, if she calls God her savior, it follows that she needed saving and was in fact saved. It does not follow that she had necessarily committed personal sins. Babies haven't committed personal sins, yet none of them can get to heaven on their own merits (to say otherwise is the heresy of Pelagianism). Catholics are required by their faith to believe precisely that her sinlessness was a gift from God, that is, that it was part and parcel of the grace that saved her.

And none of that has anything to do with praying for the Poor Souls in purgatory, which was the original topic of this thread.

[Campion]

Okay, and believers who leave this life in the state of grace but still with some attachment to sin are purified through Christ's sacrifice how, when, and where, exactly?

Keep in mind that Scripture says that nothing unclean can enter heaven and that our God is a consuming fire. No attachment to sin can survive in his presence, can it?

[Californiajones]

1. Necromancy is seeking out the dead for answers or advice on the future.

Praying to a dead Christian - i.e. the dead in Christ or a dead "Saint" - as if they had more power or a different power than God to intercede for us -- is necromancy which of course is a form of idolatry.

2. To be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Notice Paul does not say: "It would be better to be absent from the body, wait out the weird, indefinite period of "purgation" of our souls when, hopefully, some Christian on earth might say enough prayers for me to finally get to a place where I might be able to be present with the Lord."

Nope. He says it's better to "be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. "

Where's any mention of purgatory here? And how could the prayers of any Christian affect the status of the dead, whose acts on earth are affixed forever in time? You mean to say if I pray hard enough for Hitler, I can change his eternal destination? It reminds me of those poor Mormons, wasting their short time on earth with eternal genealogies so they can somehow redo the eternal course of their ancestors by baptizing the dead by proxy. Weirdly Satanic distraction from our major focus on earth -- proclaiming the gospel to the unbeliever and bringing Christ's kingdom of love to earth.

The saint stuff and purgatory stuff are extra biblical distractions -- Paul calls us to:

"Be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

"Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.

"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints...."

Our prayer engages us in the heavenly battle against the invisible army of the Evil one, the Satanic forces of hell on earth, for the purposes of extending the kingdom of God on earth. Are you saying that the people in purgatory are still subject to the Principalities of Satan in Purgatory? Ya know what I think? I think all this praying for the dead and praying to saints distracts a Christian from seeing the battle of good and evil that wages around them -- this is why we are equipped in the Holy Spirit to do prayer battle against Hell. The Lord calls us to proclaim the Gospel now. The Dead in Christ either heard the call and took the "narrow road" to Heaven or the wide path to destruction of Hell. Our concern needs to be on those unsaved and how to pull down "strongholds" i.e. arguments that rail against God in our lives as well as the lives of those who are not yet believers.

[Californiajones]

Why? Then why would Mary bother to be there in the upper room at Pentecost if she had no need for the infilling of the newly coming Gifts of the Spirit? Mary, as all the other disciples, needed a savior and committed sins. How about the time she and Jesus' brothers came to Him and tried to get him to stop healing all those people? And Jesus said "who are my brothers and my mother" (my paraphrase) My mother and my brothers are those who do the will of my Father in heaven." He did not indicate any special dispensation or anything like that on His brothers and Mary.

[Campion]

Don't you think it's odd that you quote St. Thomas in your tagline when you attack his faith in your posts? Can't you find a Protestant tagline?

Praying to a dead Christian - i.e. the dead in Christ or a dead "Saint" - as if they had more power or a different power than God to intercede for us

... is simply something that no Catholic knowledgeable in his faith does. It's a red herring. The saints are powerful because they are in the presence of God and filled with his divine life and charity. Their intercession flows through the mediation of Christ, just like the intercession of the (then biologically) living Christians Paul asks to pray for him in his letters. If what we do is wrong, what he did is wrong also.

Don't bother saying "but he didn't pray to dead people"; I'll just point you back to Jesus telling the Sadducees, "Why does God say to Moses, 'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ... he is not the God of the dead, but of the living."

And how could the prayers of any Christian affect the status of the dead, whose acts on earth are affixed forever in time? You mean to say if I pray hard enough for Hitler, I can change his eternal destination?

If you mean can you dig Hitler out of hell and get him to heaven, no, you can't. Purgatory is only for the saved.

You really seem determined to attack a caricature of Catholicism. Why don't you try actually coming to some sort of understanding of the real thing, instead of throwing up and shooting down these strawman arguments?

[Californiajones]

"Keep in mind that Scripture says that nothing unclean can enter heaven and that our God is a consuming fire. No attachment to sin can survive in his presence, can it?"

Of course. Our sins are covered by the blood of Christ. Blood is required for the remission of sins. Once and for all it was done on the Cross. That is faith -- trusting that all of our sins are pardoned by God.

[Campion]

Mary, as all the other disciples, needed a savior and committed sins.

You haven't proved that Mary committed any sins, nor have you refuted my objection to your logic.

How about the time she and Jesus' brothers came to Him and tried to get him to stop healing all those people?

I think you're inventing another "Scripture" that doesn't exist. None of the three Gospels that mention this episode say anything about Mary or anyone else trying to "get" Jesus "to stop healing" anyone. It just says that they wanted to see him. No sin in that.

[F16Fighter]

"Okay, and believers who leave this life in the state of grace but still with with some attachment to sin are purified through Christ's sacrifice how, when, and where, exactly?"

The moment Christ died, he took ALL the sins of the world on Him -- not some of them.

It is up to us whether we accept His "grace."

As He said to His Father according to Scripture: "It is done."

"Keep in mind that Scripture says that nothing unclean can enter heaven and that our God is a consuming fire. No attachment to sin can survive in his presence, can it?"

Hear ya...

Again, through the Lord's mercy, that was the reason for the sinless Christ's sacrifice. NO man was/is sinless but by and through the redemption of the Savior....