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To: Californiajones
Mary, as all the other disciples, needed a savior and committed sins.

You haven't proved that Mary committed any sins, nor have you refuted my objection to your logic.

How about the time she and Jesus' brothers came to Him and tried to get him to stop healing all those people?

I think you're inventing another "Scripture" that doesn't exist. None of the three Gospels that mention this episode say anything about Mary or anyone else trying to "get" Jesus "to stop healing" anyone. It just says that they wanted to see him. No sin in that.

19 posted on 10/27/2004 4:05:40 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion
How come Mary and Jesus' brothers were standing outside wanting to speak with Jesus when he was inside speaking to the multitudes? Clearly, the Lord was doing the will of God. What could possibly be so urgent as to take Jesus away from His work on earth, if Mary understood who her Son was, not only the Savior of the World, but her personal Savior as well?

Now, If God was going to do some special thing with Mary, why would Jesus say: "Who is my mother and who are my brothers?" He stretched out his hand toward his disciples and said Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does the will of my father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!"

This passage in Matthew 12 always said to me that Jesus' disciples were doing the will of God while his mom and bros were head scratching outside as to what Jesus was doing. In other words, they did not get it about Jesus.

This is also shown in John where Jesus effectively ditches his brothers and does not tell them his exact plans because they could not hear Him for their lack of faith.

/7:1/ After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He did not wish to go about in Judea because the Jews were looking for an opportunity to kill him. /7:2/ Now the Jewish festival of Booths was near. /7:3/ So his brothers said to him, "Leave here and go to Judea so that your disciples also may see the works you are doing; /7:4/ for no one who wants to be widely known acts in secret. If you do these things, show yourself to the world." 7:5 (For not even his brothers believed in him.) /7:6/ Jesus said to them, "My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. /7:7/ The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify against it that its works are evil. /7:8/ Go to the festival yourselves. I am not going to this festival, for my time has not yet fully come." /7:9/ After saying this, he remained in Galilee. /7:10/ But after his brothers had gone to the festival, then he also went, not publicly but as it were in secret.

Again Jesus had to evade his brothers because His brothers did not believe i.e. they did not have faith. They did not believe in Him! If Mary was not given the same level of faithfulness that the disciples were in Matthew 12 and Jesus' brothers were said to not believe in Jesus, it seems strange and unlikely that God would perform some extra biblical miracle of giving Mary divine, sinlessness after Jesus ascended.

It is not that she was not saved -- it is that she is not to be prayed to. It breaks the First commandment.
28 posted on 10/27/2004 4:22:41 PM PDT by Californiajones ("The apprehension of beauty is the cure for apathy" - Thomas Aquinas)
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