It deserves its own badge: In honor of post #246.
Posted on 10/15/2004 1:04:27 AM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian
Unlike some half-soused coach on steroids and antacids, God is God, omnipotent creator of heaven and earth. He knows the players because He created the players and the stadium and the Astroturf and the Burger King concessions and the goal posts and the weather and the air every player breaths.
God knows that since time began every player on the field will fumble the ball from birth onward because all men are dead in trespass and guilty of sin through Adam's fall.
But God knows, too, that He picked a team from before the foundation of the world whom He would regenerate into righteous Rudys. This team, chosen before time from all races and nations would fight on, over tremendous odds, overcoming the abuse of men and circumstance, because they are on His team.
As God told Ananias about Saul...
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake." -- Acts 9:15-16."But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he (Saul) is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
So God's team is made up of a million Sauls, the most fallen murdering creature on earth, who becomes a "chosen vessel," regenerated by God, redeemed by Jesus Christ to "bear His name" before the world. For this, His team will "suffer great things" -- soda bottles thrown from the stands, rain delays, abusive fans, lying umpires, all for His glory.
But the team doesn't falter because they know the game has already been won, and has been won from before the foundation of the world. They read this truth in the Play book. The Trainer, the Holy Spirit, encourages them. The scoreboard eternally flashes "Christ Risen."
"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -- John 16:33
Unlike some half-soused coach on steroids and antacids, God is God, omnipotent creator of heaven and earth. He knows the players because He created the players and the stadium and the Astroturf and the Burger King concessions and the goal posts and the weather and the air every player breaths.
I think the fundamental difference that arises from our competing views is one of relationship. As we caught the floater that God laid up there for us, we are motivated by the fact that He has taken a personal interest in our condition. And as He lays out the pathway toward choosing Him, we are blessed more so because we see how His hand was guiding us.
We can faithfully tell unbelievers of the personal interest He has toward them, without worrying if we are outside of His will in our wholehearted sharing of the Gospel to people. The caution that is naturally presented in the Calvinistic Gospel, shines through clearly. "Oh, and by the way you may not be one of the elect. Maybe you are waisting your time being curious about Christianity?"
The Bible is clear that all men are created in the image of God because they have descended from Adam. That image has value and meaning despite unbelievers sinful natures. However, that value is not realized, from our perspective, until we are in Christ, as we become capable of communing with God, discerning His will for our lives. The Lake of Fire was created for the unforgivable Devil and his angels, not those created in God's image, who because of Christ are worthy of an inheritance that marvels the Holy Angels.
The Holy Spiritual communion with God is what we lost in the fall. Regeneration is as simple as accepting Jesus' death and resurrection to reestablish that personal relationship with the Father. The new creature is only new because God can have Holy Communion with the person, based on Jesus' work. For this reason we do not become sinless "new creatures", which is what one would expect with the term "new creature". The newness of life is based on what Jesus did, and how we now have fellowship with God.
Our continued sinning does not alter our position with God, rather the fellowship with God alters our sinning. He who begins a good work in you is faithful to complete it. From a practical perspective, after having been saved, we realize that God is working on all of mankind to win souls. This motivates us to share His love to all we come in contact with. He desires that none created in His image are cast into the eternal fire.
Sorry, I meant to ping you folks to post #242.
I’m afraid I can’t figure out your allegory in post #239. I personally don’t like allegories since they rarely reflect scripture. I don’t think either view believes God doesn’t take a competing interest in His elect (I hope you would agree that those chosen of God are His elect).
Your post sounds like the typical Hallmark theology I so frequently hear. It sounds so warm and wonderful that if you were just to chose God life will be wonderful. The “God loves you and wants you to have a wonderful life” mentality. What’s missing is the fine print on this Hallmark card which says if you happen to make the WRONG choice God will cast you into Hell. Some even insist God REALLY won’t cast anyone into Hell because He loves everyone. He’ll just annihilate them.
This is not the God of the Old Testament who hardens people’s hearts and raises and destroys nations. It is not the God of the New Testament who calls people “brood of vipers” and “an evil and adulteresses generation” and drove the money changers out of the temple with whips. And this view does not command the respect and fear of the Lord that is asked for by God Himself.
I have yet to find anyone who can reconcile the scriptural view of God with the Hallmark theology. But it sure sounds so nice and beautiful and perhaps if we play just one more stanza of Amazing Grace....
If you have been reading my posts you would be aware that I completely believe God will send those who reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit to eternal damnation. They will be judged for their deeds, which lay uncovered to the righteous Judge over all. Then those who have rejected Jesus' offer of Salvation will be sent to the Lake of Fire for eternity. God is the one who says the Lake of Fire was made for the Devil and his angels. That is not my idea. The only reason believers deeds are not Judged is because we are covered by the shed blood of Christ.
This is not the God of the Old Testament who hardens people’s hearts and raises and destroys nations. It is not the God of the New Testament who calls people “brood of vipers” and “an evil and adulteresses generation” and drove the money changers out of the temple with whips. And this view does not command the respect and fear of the Lord that is asked for by God Himself.
The God of the Old Testament is unchanging. This is why Paul can declare that all who were created in the image of God are without excuse for rejecting His plan of Salvation. The creation testifies of His Majesty to all. Also, because Noah preached God's plan of Salvation for over 100 years to all of the inhabitants of the world before the flood; they were without excuse. The story in the stars handed down to every generation, speak of God's plan. From Virgo, the virgin, to Leo, the Lion of the tribe of Judah.
He has given all those made in His image a fair chance to receive the gift of faith by His grace.
Romans 10:17 and Ephesians 1:13 simply state that when an unsaved man believes and trusts the Gospel he is Saved. Obviously, we see this all the time.
OP, I'm sure you know Rom 10:17 and Eph 1:13 go further and explicitly state the sequence of hearing preceding faith and belief, and that Eph 1:13 further states belief and being sealed in the Holy Spirit follows hearing the word. OP, you ignored when hearing and belief occurs relative to regeneration in the sequences of Rom 10:17 and Eph 1:13 - which sequence is what is being argued, not that belief occurs at all.
To elaborate, gracebeliever in his first post #72 (replying to OrthodoxPresbyterian's post #64) argues from Rom 10:17 & Eph 1:13:
You state that "God creates Faith within a spiritually dead Man." It may seem to be splitting hairs, but Romans 10:17 teaches that "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God." While God is the author of His Book through God the Holy Spirit, it seems one must first hear and believe, i.e., have faith, before the work of regeneration occurs.
For example, in Eph. 1:13, we're told "In whom ye also trusted (have faith in), after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also after that ye believed (have faith in), ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise." The order seems to be that we hear the Word, trust the Word, believe the Word and then get sealed with the Holy Spirit Himself. So it appears from this Scripture that we must have faith before we are regenerated, which is an act of the Holy Spirit, Titus 3:4,5 (one of the only two instances of the word regeneration in the NT), Romans 8:11. While this may happen virtually instantaneously when one believes and is saved, Paul, as directed by the Holy Spirit, is rather specific in the order.
Here then are Rom 10:17 and Eph 1:13 (all cites below are NASB):
Rom 10:14-17 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
Paul rhetorically asks how can someone believe what they have not yet heard and answers that their faith comes from hearing. "Comes from" - faith (and belief) follows from first hearing (or reading) the word.
Eph 1:13-14 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Paul now explicitly and specifically states after listening and having also believed then were they sealed by the Spirit. Again the scriptural sequence is that hearing the word (the gospel) precedes believing and sealing.
It is this explicit scriptural sequence from Rom 10:17 & Eph 1:13 which (in gracebeliever's phrasing The order seems to be that we hear the Word, trust the Word, believe the Word and then get sealed with the Holy Spirit Himself) OP has not yet addressed, let alone refuted.
OrthodoxPresbyterian further concludes in his post #219:
So: given that it is impossible that a man should believe and trust the Gospel while he is Unregenerate, then -- In order to believe and trust the Gospel, is it necessary that an unsaved man must first be Regenerated by the Holy Spirit? Yes, or No?
A false premise precedes the question; that being "given that it is impossible that a man should believe and trust the Gospel while he is Unregenerate".
Scripture records many instances where the unregenerate believe something - sometimes they believe a lie, but yet other times they believe the gospel - scripture records both by the unregenerate as well as the regenerate.
But that is not surprising. We "believe" in something about which we have knowledge, which knowledge may be provable or not. If the knowledge is provable (such as a spherical earth) then our belief is fact-based. If the knowledge is unprovable (such as being indwelt by the Holy Spirit) then our belief is faith-based.
God instilled in all men the intellectual ability to think about and evaluate their knowledge and then commensurately to believe or disbelieve. Believing or disbelieving is as natural an ability as thinking and is a prerequisite to human physical survival as well as spiritual rebirth.
The critical difference is: In what do I believe or what knowledge do I have in which to believe? If I believe I can jump off a cliff and fly then I will fall and die; if I believe that two minus two equals four then I'll never balance my checkbook and go broke; if I believe that a geographical globe maps the earth then I can correctly navigate; if I believe (sincerely believe) the gospel then I'll receive salvation from God.
Specifically, the scripture passages below demonstrate that one does not need to be regenerated first to believe the gospel, and that hearing or reading the gospel precedes belief in the gospel and subsequent regeneration. The passages are grouped into:
To correctly discuss whether "regeneration" precedes or follows "belief" requires scriptural definitions of both terms.
The English word "believe" is translated from the Greek pisteuo (Strong's 4100):
pisteuo
pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.from G4102; to believe, entrust: - believe (118), believed (73), believers (3), believes (29), believing (10), do (1), entrust (1), entrusted (6), entrusting (1), has faith (1).
The English word "regeneration" is translated from the Greek paliggenesia (Strong's 3824):
paliggenesia
pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah
From G3825 and G1078; (spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act), that is, (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specifically Messianic restoration: - regeneration.paliggenesia; from G3825 and G1078; regeneration, renewal: - regeneration (2).
Regeneration, restoration, renovation, rebirth. Occurs in Mat_19:28, which refers to the coming state of the whole creation, equivalent to the restoration of all things of Act_3:21 which will occur when the Son of Man shall come in His glory. In this sense, it is equivalent to apokatástasis (G605), restitution. The washing of regeneration (paliggenesía, Tit_3:5) refers to the spiritual rebirth of the individual soul.
The Mat 19:28 use of regeneration is not applicable as it refers to the regeneration (restoration) of all things at Jesus 2nd coming, whereas Titus 3:5 refers to the regeneration (new birth) of each individual believer, to wit:
Tit 3:5-7 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration3824 and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:5-7 makes clear that individual regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit are characteristics of salvation. The believer's salvation or redemption is sealed (Strong's 4972) by the Holy Spirit as made clear in 2Co 1:21-22, Eph 1:13-14, and Eph 4:30, to wit:
2Co 1:21-22 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed4972 us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
Eph 1:13-14 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed4972 in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Eph 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed4972 for the day of redemption.
Collectively, these four passages (Tit 3:5-7, 2Co 1:21-22, Eph 1:13-14, Eph 4:30) provide a scriptural implication that "regeneration" is a characteristic of salvation or redemption which is accompanied by "sealing" with the Holy Spirit. Or conversely, the unregenerate are not yet sealed by the Holy Spirit or saved.
Note: occasionally below I refer to this scriptural implication that 'regeneration is a characteristic of salvation accompanied by sealing' by the short hand notation "regeneration (saved and sealed)". The short hand is not intended to redefine "regeneration" but merely to refer back to this scriptural implication that being saved and sealed accompanies regeneration.
1. Belief is based on knowledge received:
Joh 20:24-29 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples were saying to him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the imprint of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe4100." After eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in their midst and said, "Peace be with you." Then He said to Thomas, "Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing4103." Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed4100? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed4100."
Thomas was a disciple of Jesus and had previously acknowledged Jesus as Lord (Joh 14:5), which acknowledgment I presume OrthodoxPresbyterian would stipulate is predicated on being regenerated. Yet here in Joh 20:24-29 a "regenerated" Thomas is disbelieving (for at least 8 days) a resurrection that the other "regenerated" disciples believed. All disciples presumably being "regenerated", the only difference is that Thomas had not seen evidence, but when he saw evidence then he believed as well - i.e., belief requires evidence to precede it. As does believing the word requires (at a minimum) hearing to precede it.
Those of us who have not personally directly seen the evidence of a risen Jesus Christ yet believe the Gospel reports of scripture, are blessed. But regardless, our "belief" follows from and is based on the written evidence of scripture that we hear or read.
Act 1:3 To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.
That the belief of even regenerated believers (the twelve disciples in this instance) is based on received evidence is further reinforced by Acts 1:3.
"Many convincing proofs" were needed for the disciples (not just Thomas) to believe in the resurrection. Belief is not a function of regeneration, but rather belief is a human intellectual conclusion arrived at the end of a process of evaluating evidence read, heard or seen and, consequently, belief in the Gospel naturally follows hearing or reading the Gospel, and then regeneration follows (or accompanies) that belief.
Joh 20:30-31 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these have been written so that you may believe4100 that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing4100 you may have life in His name.
Written so that those who read [about these signs] may then believe and have life.
Without the prior writing and reading, what is to have been believed? Belief, even blind faith belief, requires some knowledge about which the belief is held. Without first hearing or reading the gospel, in what precisely would any of us then believe?
Are we to understand that God wrote the Bible to be read only by those who were already regenerated (also saved and sealed - as per the scriptural implications of "regeneration") when they first read it? Or was the Bible written also that the unregenerate (unsaved and unsealed) have something in which to believe or disbelieve when they first read it?
2. Beliefs can be correct or mistaken:
2Th 2:8-12 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe4100 what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
Here we have an example of sincere (albeit deluded) belief in a falsehood being based on or following a God-sent delusion. So the unregenerate can believe a delusion. Truth is not always believed - falsehood can be believed as well - but either belief or disbelief again follows or is based on some knowledge or information - a delusion in this case.
Jam 2:19 You believe4100 that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe4100, and shudder.
James points out demons (clearly unregenerate) also believe in God. If unregenerate demons can believe in God, can not an unregenerate man upon hearing or reading the gospel also believe in God? While man's receipt of salvation further depends upon accepting and trusting Christ as Savior, Lord and Master and repenting (which demons do not), is man (even fallen man) so intellectually inferior to demons that unregenerate man can not believe what demons also believe?
1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe4100 every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
John, speaking to the "beloved" (regenerated, saved and sealed believers) cautions them about the danger of believing a false spirit. Since even regeneration is no guarantee of believing only truth, but requires an intellectual testing exercise to weed out falsehood, that same intellectual exercise must likewise be done by the unregenerate to likewise weed out falsehood from truth.
It is that intellectual weeding of falsehood from truth, the weighing of evidence (read or heard) that underlies the beliefs or disbeliefs we form. The unregenerate have no intellectual impairment that precludes them from weighing evidence and reaching true beliefs thereupon. If their belief is sincere that the world is round, they'll be good unsaved navigators. But if their belief is sincere that Jesus is their Savior and Lord, they'll be saved and regenerated. In either case, evidence is first read or heard, then weighed or tested, and then believed or disbelieved, regenerate or not.
3. Belief follows after hearing or reading about whatever is to be believed:
Luk 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe4100 and be saved.
In explaining the parable of the sower, Jesus teaches that a consequence of the word being removed from a person's heart is they will not believe and then not be saved. Conversely, hearing or reading the word (and retaining it) is a prerequisite of belief, followed or accompanied by salvation.
Rom 10:14-17 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed4100? How will they believe4100 in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED4100 OUR REPORT?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
As previously pointed out at the top of this post, Paul rhetorically asks how can someone believe what they have not yet heard and answers that their faith comes from hearing. Faith (and belief) follows from hearing the word. Faith or belief in the word is based on something that was first read or heard. Paul does not predicate belief on regeneration (being saved and sealed), but on hearing or reading. Paul's rhetorical question is how can an unregenerate person believe something they have not heard (or read)? Clearly, they must first hear or read it.
The change from the unregenerate who is ignorant of the gospel to the unregenerate who has heard the gospel, is a change of knowledge or evidence received. Subsequently, that new knowledge or evidence is then believed or disbelieved. One cannot believe or disbelieve what one does not know. One must first hear, read or see it to then believe or disbelieve it.
Eph 1:13-14 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed4100, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Paul now explicitly and specifically states after listening and having also believed then they were they sealed by the Spirit. Again the scriptural sequence is that hearing the word (the gospel) precedes believing and sealing.
4. The gospel can be believed by the unregenerate:
Luk 8:13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe4100 for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
In further explaining the parable of the sower, Jesus teaches that the word can be received with joy accompanied by belief for a while, but then fall away.
So, how does a regenerated (saved and sealed) believer not persevere and maintain their belief? They lacked "firm root" is the superficial answer.
Which in turn only begs the deeper question, how does regeneration (saved and sealed) that is sufficient for belief then fail to establish firm root?
The scriptural consistent answer is that those on rocky soil were not regenerated prior to believing what they heard, nor did those on rocky soil have "firm root", and those on rocky soil did not have a sincere saving belief. They believed for a while without being regenerated.
Mat 18:2-6 And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me; but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe4100 in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
Jesus explicitly states that children believe in Him. Are children regenerated (saved and sealed) or unregenerate?
If children are regenerated, then when were they unregenerate? Generally, as of "adult" age, are not most adults "unregenerate" by default (hence everyone's need for regeneration or rebirth)? So when and how therefore does one stumble and "lose" the regeneration one perhaps formerly had as a child?
Or is it simply that children, like adults, are by default unregenerate but children (unencumbered and open in their thinking) can "believe" in Jesus until the thorns and vicissitudes of later life make most of them jaded, cynical and unbelieving (like those beside the road or on rocky soil as taught in the parable of the sower). Consequently, children believe without being first regenerated, and adults can likewise believe as regeneration is not the prerequisite for "belief" but rather thinking that is open and receptive to the evidence presented.
Further, suppose, hypothetically, that Jesus' earthly ministry had lasted 30 years (until he was about 60), and suppose Thomas (as a child) was one of those about whom Jesus said one of these little ones who believe in Me, and further suppose that in later life Thomas came to be the disciple who disbelieved in Jesus resurrection as he had been told (Joh 20:24-29). Would Thomas have had an ability as a child to believe in Jesus, but then lose that ability as an adult to believe in Jesus resurrection only to regain that ability to believe upon seeing evidence? Is a regenerated "belief" so fickle, or is it that "belief" is not predicated on regeneration but rather on fallible human understanding?
1Co 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe4100.
Again Paul makes it explicitly clear the purpose of preaching is to provide the gospel to save (regenerate and seal) those who in fact believe [the gospel].
Presumably preaching is done to the unregenerate since Christ came to seek and save the lost, and upon hearing what has been preached, some of those unregenerate subsequently believed and were saved (regenerated and sealed). But they were unregenerate (unsaved and unsealed) when they first heard and believed what was preached.
Either belief or unbelief is possible in unregenerate people who hear or read the gospel.
Eph 1:13-14 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed4100, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Emphasizing a different aspect of this passage now, Paul explicitly states that believing and sealing with the Holy Spirit followed after listening to the gospel. Consequently, prior to their hearing the gospel, these people were neither sealed nor regenerated yet they believed what they heard.
In summary, the unregenerate can read or hear the gospel (truth), and then correctly believe it and then receive salvation, or disbelieve it and remain condemned.
OP, you assert and declare (without demonstrating the scriptural basis) that "We know that Scripture teaches that that while a Man is Unregenerate, he will NEVER believe and trust the Gospel."
Well, we don't know that. Please show in detail your scriptural basis for your position. Further, to argue that an unsaved man must first be "regenerated" in order to "believe" and trust the gospel, requires a scripture-based definition of regeneration and belief that consistently explains how:
It deserves its own badge: In honor of post #246.
Romans 10:17, in the Greek says "ara pistis ek ekoe de akoe dia rhema theos"
That verse, being translated into English says "Therefore faith by hearing and hearing by God's spoken word." Sure, hearing may precede faith, but regeneration precedes hearing. It is the word of God that regenerates the spiritually dead and gives them ears to hear.
See Ezekiel 37 4-14
"And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD."
We can clearly see from the preceding text that faith is a result of the regenerating power of God's word. The dead could not believe until AFTER they had been given life. It was only after the dead were regenerated by the word of God that they were able to know the LORD. Faith is a result of regeneration not the cause of it.
"Eph 1:13 further states belief and being sealed in the Holy Spirit follows hearing the word. "
Wrong. If you would have taken the time to look at that passage in the Greek, you would realized that the the word "after" is not in the original text.
The verse, when correctly translated states "In whom you also heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: In whom also ye believed, sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise." It is only when one is already IN Christ (regenerated) that they can believe, and if that person is IN Christ, then that person is sealed with the Holy Spirit.
Further, to argue that an unsaved man must first be "regenerated" in order to "believe" and trust the gospel, requires a scripture-based definition of regeneration and belief that consistently explains how:
"regeneration must precede belief but without accompanying salvation or sealing by the Holy Spirit;"
This statement was entirely refuted above.
"both regenerated and unregenerate alike can believe spiritual truths (ex. man is not God, murder is wrong);"
Wrong. Because the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
"children believe as if regenerated and yet can grow to disbelieve as unregenerate adults;"
Wrong again. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. Unregenerate children are in the flesh, therefore they cannot please God.
regeneration can be sufficient to believe for a while but insufficient to establish "firm root";
Wrong. Those that received the seed upon the rock were never regenerated. Those that truly belong to Christ NEVER fall away. Jeremiah 32:40 states: "I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me" unregenerate demons can believe in God;
So what, they are damned. There is no hope for them.God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell. Jesus died for the sins of men, not angels.
proof of the resurrection was needed to convince regenerated disciples to believe it was true;
Jesus said to Thomas: Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
How do you know Thomas was regenerate before Jesus spoke belief unto him? That is an assumption on your part.
the regenerated still need to test what they believe to avoid mistaken beliefs;
So what? This does not prove that faith precedes regeneration.
the gospel was heard and believed by the previously unregenerate at Ephesus.
How does this prove that faith precedes regeneration?
See Ezekiel 37 4-14
"And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD."
Your statement Sure, hearing may precede faith, but regeneration precedes hearing. does not follow the sequence of the text you cited.
Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. - the bones are still dry and dead.
Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones - the bones are still dead.
Everything that follows that the Lord says He will do is in the future tense.
IOW, "tell these dry bones what I will do..."
If they can't hear, why tell them before He does it?
I don't believe this prophecy has anything to do with the regeneration of an idividual, but if it does, it certainly contradicts the Calvinist position.
In context it is clear that this passage has nothing to do with individual salvation:
Eze 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
This is an interesting comment. You claim that regeneration precedes hearing in the second sentence, but the clear and unambiguous implication of the third sentence is that it is the hearing of the word that regenerates the spiritually dead. In other words, you are actually saying that it is the hearing that causes a regeneration. Which is it?
Apparently different people have different definitions for regeneration which may be the problem with the term “believing”. The early church fathers never really did defined what “regeneration” meant; only that there is such a process. And Augustine did not believe prevenient grace to be regeneration.
To some regeneration is defined simply as the process of those “turning” to the Lord. Others, such as Calvin, used regeneration in a broad sense of the whole process (e.g. sanctification, justification, etc.) although he also believed there is a clear point in time when one “turns” to the Lord. Some do not believe regeneration happens until baptism. (see more at Regeneration)
If we interpret regeneration in the narrowest sense as the point in which a person “turns” towards God; how does man, who is evil, turn towards God? It is the Holy Spirit who illuminates :
”The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 CORINTHIANS 2:14
It says in the above passage that man alone cannot accept this illumination nor can he understands the things from God without the Spirit. The Catholics believe man is spiritually defective and when God illuminates himself to all men then man has the capability of “freely” turning towards God. I assume this is what you meant by man making an “intellectual” decision during the “turning” process. However, this interpretation IMO is flawed in that it ignores the many various texts of scriptures about man’s depravity. It also ignore the fact that Adam, in his pure and innocent state, still couldn’t make the right decision.
This only leads to the conclusion that the Spirit of God leads us to the “turning” point in which He awakes in us the desire to join God’s family. This contradicts what you are saying that man, who in his sinful state and is at war with God can make some type of intellectual decision to come to know God. The scriptures doesn’t say that.
An interesting article is Illumination
In the Old Testament, passage escapes me, it mentions that the sins of the fathers would be visited upon the third, even to the fourth generation. If one takes this passage out of context, one would believe that the children are sinful. However, the passage is referring to the consequences of sin, not spiritual death. If it were spiritual in nature, then it ends after the fourth generation, implying no further punishment for spiritual separation from God. Not so, if one does not repent, the ultimate end is hell. Also, conversely and logically, blessings of God would end after the fourth generation which is not plausible as heaven is eternal.
Hope that helps.
I don't think anyone here believes that Harley. That is a straw man if there ever was one. If you are going to contradict what we believe, you might want to start by stating what we actually do believe, not the Calvinist talking points that have no basis in reality.
The problem is Harley that you Calvinists come up with different definitions for regeneration whenever it suits your arguments. Some Calvinists insist that regeneration and being born again as a new creation in Christ are the same thing. This means that you are saved before you ever hear the gospel, much less respond to it in faith. Other Calvinists claim that regeneration is just an awakening and that being born again is the end product.
I think the scriptures are clear that we are not a new creation in Christ until AFTER we have been justified and we are not justified until AFTER we believe.
You seem to be arguing here for an enlightening, which is a Wesleyan position. The Bible is clear that if we come to a point in our lives where we have a desire to come to Jesus, that it is only through the intervention of the Holy Spirit. This is certainly not the new birth. This is an awakening of the spirit at the hearing of the word of God. It is the Spirit of God that brings us to that point.
Calvinists would have us believe that every single person who gets to that point is elect. Experience (and the Bible) tells us that a lot of people get to that point turn away from God. If Calvinism were true, there would be no such thing as apostacy. There would be no such thing as false conversions. Everyone who desired God, who cried for forgiveness and who yearned to be one with Jesus would be saved without any possibility that they could fall from Grace and that no one who was ever so enlightened and knew the truth of the revealed gospel could ever reject it. I think you can find examples in your own church or your own family that might contradict that notion.
If you would look at the article I posted you would find there is disagreement on what constitutes "regeneration" by many different people-not just the Calvinists. I just noticed in the above post the context of "believe" is different in different circumstances. I was trying to standardize the term "regeneration" to fit the specific action where man "turns" to God which is what I think we're talking about. So instead of using the word “believe” which is used all sorts of ways in scriptures, I would prefer to use God’s illumination and man’s turning for that’s what we’re talking about.
"I think the scriptures are clear that we are not a new creation in Christ until AFTER we have been justified and we are not justified until AFTER we believe."
You’re running the gambit of different actions in the reconciliation process but it all comes back to the point in time the Spirit illuminating and you turning to God. Once the Spirit has illuminated man’s thoughts is it that man makes an intellectual decision to turn to God or are you drawn to God like a moth to a bug light?
Why would one think it’s an intellectual decision? I would venture to guess Adam, being perfect, was a lot smarter than any of us and he chose poorly even in an unfallen state. I don’t understand how if God’s Spirit would illuminate His word to us, how we in our present state could be expected to make any better decision? At best it would seem like it would be 50/50.
Then you run into the other problem. If the Holy Spirit took the time out to illuminate the word to you, are you prepared to say it is your intellect that caused you to turn or is it God’s Spirit? Who turns us to God? Perhaps I’m wrong but I would venture to say you would respond that the Holy Spirit is responsible for turning you towards God. (If I’m wrong please correct me for I would love to hear this.) On the off chance that you did say that after the illumination you made an intellectual decision then you run the risk of saying your decision making capabilities were better than Adam’s (perfect man). That would be a tad bit difficult to sallow.
It would also mean that if God could suspend everyone in a perfect state to make that choice some would chose Heaven (the perfect choice) and some would chose Hell (the imperfect choice). Why would man in a perfect state make an imperfect choice?
There are far too many arguments against the intelligent decision. When the Spirit illuminates, that perfect love and joy draws us and it is irresistible. We freely give up our wills to follow.
"Calvinists would have us believe that every single person who gets to that point is elect. Experience (and the Bible) tells us that a lot of people get to that point turn away from God."
Please look at this logic. People don't turn either to God or away from God. That would suggest PRIOR to this "turning" they're in "neutral" territory of which there is no such place. There is only one way to turn and one can only be turned after the illumination of the Spirit. Every person who "turns towards God" is elected. There is no "turning away from God" from a regenerated perspective. Had they been of us, they would have continued with us.
So that when they do hear, they will know that it was God who brought them back to life. It was God who purposed to give them life even before they could hear and understand.
"If we want to use the dry bones prophecy to prove regeneration before faith, then it is clear that the first thing a person must do is hear the word. Nothing happens before that. "
Wrong. God had to give the dead men life before they could hear His word. It wasn't their hearing that gave them life, it was God speaking that gave them life. They heard AFTER they had been made alive. Thus regeneration precedes faith.
"It is only after they hear the word that the process of new life begins."
Wrong, God gives them life, then they hear His word.
"the clear and unambiguous implication of the third sentence is that it is the hearing of the word that regenerates the spiritually dead. In other words, you are actually saying that it is the hearing that causes a regeneration. Which is it?"
I am not saying that the hearing causes regeneration. God speaking life unto the dead causes regeneration, once a person has been regenerated, they are able to hear His word unto faith. Regeneration precedes faith.
That still doesn't follow with the text you quoted. The Lord said speak to the dry bones.
He didn't say speak to the bones I regenerated.
There's a simple way to prove it. Quote the Scripture that backs this up. If there is no scripture that backs this up, it is pure doctrine, and not biblical.
God spoke life unto the dry bones. The bones were dead prior to God speaking. The bones could not hear until AFTER they had been given life.
"Quote the Scripture that backs this up."
I already did. Ezekiel 37.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.