I don't think anyone here believes that Harley. That is a straw man if there ever was one. If you are going to contradict what we believe, you might want to start by stating what we actually do believe, not the Calvinist talking points that have no basis in reality.
The problem is Harley that you Calvinists come up with different definitions for regeneration whenever it suits your arguments. Some Calvinists insist that regeneration and being born again as a new creation in Christ are the same thing. This means that you are saved before you ever hear the gospel, much less respond to it in faith. Other Calvinists claim that regeneration is just an awakening and that being born again is the end product.
I think the scriptures are clear that we are not a new creation in Christ until AFTER we have been justified and we are not justified until AFTER we believe.
You seem to be arguing here for an enlightening, which is a Wesleyan position. The Bible is clear that if we come to a point in our lives where we have a desire to come to Jesus, that it is only through the intervention of the Holy Spirit. This is certainly not the new birth. This is an awakening of the spirit at the hearing of the word of God. It is the Spirit of God that brings us to that point.
Calvinists would have us believe that every single person who gets to that point is elect. Experience (and the Bible) tells us that a lot of people get to that point turn away from God. If Calvinism were true, there would be no such thing as apostacy. There would be no such thing as false conversions. Everyone who desired God, who cried for forgiveness and who yearned to be one with Jesus would be saved without any possibility that they could fall from Grace and that no one who was ever so enlightened and knew the truth of the revealed gospel could ever reject it. I think you can find examples in your own church or your own family that might contradict that notion.
If you would look at the article I posted you would find there is disagreement on what constitutes "regeneration" by many different people-not just the Calvinists. I just noticed in the above post the context of "believe" is different in different circumstances. I was trying to standardize the term "regeneration" to fit the specific action where man "turns" to God which is what I think we're talking about. So instead of using the word “believe” which is used all sorts of ways in scriptures, I would prefer to use God’s illumination and man’s turning for that’s what we’re talking about.
"I think the scriptures are clear that we are not a new creation in Christ until AFTER we have been justified and we are not justified until AFTER we believe."
You’re running the gambit of different actions in the reconciliation process but it all comes back to the point in time the Spirit illuminating and you turning to God. Once the Spirit has illuminated man’s thoughts is it that man makes an intellectual decision to turn to God or are you drawn to God like a moth to a bug light?
Why would one think it’s an intellectual decision? I would venture to guess Adam, being perfect, was a lot smarter than any of us and he chose poorly even in an unfallen state. I don’t understand how if God’s Spirit would illuminate His word to us, how we in our present state could be expected to make any better decision? At best it would seem like it would be 50/50.
Then you run into the other problem. If the Holy Spirit took the time out to illuminate the word to you, are you prepared to say it is your intellect that caused you to turn or is it God’s Spirit? Who turns us to God? Perhaps I’m wrong but I would venture to say you would respond that the Holy Spirit is responsible for turning you towards God. (If I’m wrong please correct me for I would love to hear this.) On the off chance that you did say that after the illumination you made an intellectual decision then you run the risk of saying your decision making capabilities were better than Adam’s (perfect man). That would be a tad bit difficult to sallow.
It would also mean that if God could suspend everyone in a perfect state to make that choice some would chose Heaven (the perfect choice) and some would chose Hell (the imperfect choice). Why would man in a perfect state make an imperfect choice?
There are far too many arguments against the intelligent decision. When the Spirit illuminates, that perfect love and joy draws us and it is irresistible. We freely give up our wills to follow.
"Calvinists would have us believe that every single person who gets to that point is elect. Experience (and the Bible) tells us that a lot of people get to that point turn away from God."
Please look at this logic. People don't turn either to God or away from God. That would suggest PRIOR to this "turning" they're in "neutral" territory of which there is no such place. There is only one way to turn and one can only be turned after the illumination of the Spirit. Every person who "turns towards God" is elected. There is no "turning away from God" from a regenerated perspective. Had they been of us, they would have continued with us.