Apparently different people have different definitions for regeneration which may be the problem with the term “believing”. The early church fathers never really did defined what “regeneration” meant; only that there is such a process. And Augustine did not believe prevenient grace to be regeneration.
To some regeneration is defined simply as the process of those “turning” to the Lord. Others, such as Calvin, used regeneration in a broad sense of the whole process (e.g. sanctification, justification, etc.) although he also believed there is a clear point in time when one “turns” to the Lord. Some do not believe regeneration happens until baptism. (see more at Regeneration)
If we interpret regeneration in the narrowest sense as the point in which a person “turns” towards God; how does man, who is evil, turn towards God? It is the Holy Spirit who illuminates :
”The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 CORINTHIANS 2:14
It says in the above passage that man alone cannot accept this illumination nor can he understands the things from God without the Spirit. The Catholics believe man is spiritually defective and when God illuminates himself to all men then man has the capability of “freely” turning towards God. I assume this is what you meant by man making an “intellectual” decision during the “turning” process. However, this interpretation IMO is flawed in that it ignores the many various texts of scriptures about man’s depravity. It also ignore the fact that Adam, in his pure and innocent state, still couldn’t make the right decision.
This only leads to the conclusion that the Spirit of God leads us to the “turning” point in which He awakes in us the desire to join God’s family. This contradicts what you are saying that man, who in his sinful state and is at war with God can make some type of intellectual decision to come to know God. The scriptures doesn’t say that.
An interesting article is Illumination
I don't think anyone here believes that Harley. That is a straw man if there ever was one. If you are going to contradict what we believe, you might want to start by stating what we actually do believe, not the Calvinist talking points that have no basis in reality.
The problem is Harley that you Calvinists come up with different definitions for regeneration whenever it suits your arguments. Some Calvinists insist that regeneration and being born again as a new creation in Christ are the same thing. This means that you are saved before you ever hear the gospel, much less respond to it in faith. Other Calvinists claim that regeneration is just an awakening and that being born again is the end product.
I think the scriptures are clear that we are not a new creation in Christ until AFTER we have been justified and we are not justified until AFTER we believe.
You seem to be arguing here for an enlightening, which is a Wesleyan position. The Bible is clear that if we come to a point in our lives where we have a desire to come to Jesus, that it is only through the intervention of the Holy Spirit. This is certainly not the new birth. This is an awakening of the spirit at the hearing of the word of God. It is the Spirit of God that brings us to that point.
Calvinists would have us believe that every single person who gets to that point is elect. Experience (and the Bible) tells us that a lot of people get to that point turn away from God. If Calvinism were true, there would be no such thing as apostacy. There would be no such thing as false conversions. Everyone who desired God, who cried for forgiveness and who yearned to be one with Jesus would be saved without any possibility that they could fall from Grace and that no one who was ever so enlightened and knew the truth of the revealed gospel could ever reject it. I think you can find examples in your own church or your own family that might contradict that notion.
Perhaps rather than focusing on “believing” it is best to focus on the definition of regeneration. I think the term “believing” here is being misconstrued. Your scriptures are all over the board talking about different points in times in salvation (not necessarily regeneration as I would define it).
It was my intention to focus on both the definitions of believing as well as that of regeneration. Such was necessitated by OrthodoxPresbyterian's repeated false premise that given that it is impossible that a man should believe and trust the Gospel while he is Unregenerate.
Someone had to do the heavy lifting and define the terms being bandied about. And of course the scriptures are all over the board. Many things in scripture are believed by unregenerate and regenerate man alike. My point was not about salvation specifically or even regeneration. My point with all those cites was to show God created in man the ability to believe, and moreso to believe the gospel after hearing the gospel, and such belief in the gospel is not predicated on first being regenerated.
”The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 CORINTHIANS 2:14
It says in the above passage that man alone cannot accept this illumination nor can he understands the things from God without the Spirit.
I copied you on my prior post to grace_precedes_faith on this very issue.
This contradicts what you are saying that man, who in his sinful state and is at war with God can make some type of intellectual decision to come to know God. The scriptures doesn’t say that.
I didn't say that, I believe you know that, but are just not putting enough effort into treating my argument with more precision. As P-Marlowe points out it is a straw man; the classic Calvinist (whatever that means) accusation thrown up anytime man's ability (or willingness) to believe the gospel is discussed; the argument you'd perhaps like to have, but isn't the one I made, now is it?
And the straw men are not needed. God is Sovereign regardless of what individual decision making responsibility God delegates to His creation, and God retains all Glory regardless of which of God's laws and precepts man obeys.
Obeying God or receiving God's offered gift does not deny God any Glory. Weighing the evidence presented by God and believing the truth and obeying God does not deny God any Sovereignty.
God is Sovereign and receives all Glory while man has the God-assigned individual responsibility to believe the gospel or face the consequences.