Wayward-looking-to-return-to-the-fold-Cathoilc Stumbles upon Jack Chick...now what?

9/28/04 | NJ Neocon

[NJ Neocon]

At first it looked like whacked out propaganda - but the best lies always have truth to them.

I need help sorting the truth from un-truth.

[Land of the Irish]

Personal attacks are not permitted here.

Physician, heal thyself.

[Conservative til I die]

I don't want to sound like a put-my-hands-over-my-ears-and-go-la-la-la Catholic, but honestly, I feel safe in telling you to basically dismiss everything Jack Prick has to say.

[Conservative til I die]

The best advice I can offer you is to realize that many Protestant arguments against Catholicism are grossly caricatured exaggerations and strawmen. You just encountered and deflected one here, the idea of "seeking salvation through Mary." Others to watch out for are:

-Worshipping the saints, Mary, or the Pope
-Belief that the Pope is perfect, a clear misunderstanding of Papal Infallibility
-Worshipping statues and treating them like magic talisman

[Conservative til I die]

And also avoid the NWT above all others, as it's used by the heretical Jehovah's Witnesses and intentionally mistranslates major Bible passages to meld with their views.

[Conservative til I die]

Get thee behind us, Satan!

[Conservative til I die]

What's with you and Capital Letters?

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

You're misrepresenting Trent, not me.

In your #80, you claim that Canon XXIV, "On Justification", simply claims that Good Works are "rewarded in Heaven". However, the Vatican itself mandates instead that Eternal Life itself is the Reward being given for Good Works, not just crowns in Heaven: HERE. "We can therefore say that eternal life is, at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merits."

Your arguemnt is still on lifted from a number of Anti-Catholic tracts.

No, my argument is "lifted" from the Council of Trent, and the Vatican's own explanation of "Justification". It is you who misrepresent Trent to simply means "rewards in Heaven"; when I say that the Roman Catholic Church teaches that Salvation itself is "the reward given by God for good works and merits", the Vatican itself affirms my statement.

This is an heretical teaching, of course, which has rightly been rejected by the Orthodox and the Lutherans.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Sorry, I know that you've been reading along also; I neglected to ping you.

#87 has a Link to the Vatican's response to joint Lutheran/Roman discussions. Apparently, the Roman Catholic side was drawing dangerously close to affirming the true doctrine that Justification is by Grace alone, not of Works; so, the Vatican had to step in and stipulate that the heretical teaching that Eternal Life is "the reward given by God for good works and merits" must be maintained amongst Roman Catholics.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Going back over your Posts, I find that you've got the same Link posted in your #68.

Which makes it a mystery to me why, when I state that the Roman Catholic Church teaches that Eternal Life is (at least in part) "the reward given by God for good works and merits", you claim that I'm somehow misrepresenting her teaching.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Now, where to begin? Let's begin with "justice received" from Trent. "Received" is a past-tense construction, indicating that the action is finished. The "justice" has been "received." This makes foolishness of your claim that in order to receive "justification" the Church teaches that one must have "faith + racking up Good Works." Tthe justification is already received. Past tense.

Any Justification which must be preserved via Good Works, and increased via Good Works, is not a "finished action".

[Dominick]

In your #80, you claim that Canon XXIV, "On Justification", simply claims that Good Works are "rewarded in Heaven". However, the Vatican itself mandates instead that Eternal Life itself is the Reward being given for Good Works, not just crowns in Heaven: HERE. "We can therefore say that eternal life is, at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merits."

You are incorrect. Trent has is right and you misinterpreted it. The refutation of your quote, and your misinterpretation, is there for all to see. The Church does not teach you get to Heaven by works, it teaches you build your faith and piety through faith and works, they go hand in hand.

The crux is the meaning of the word justice. Here is means the reward of the already justified. Surly you can understand how the English language changes.

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

I can only wonder how you missed the very first Canon. It isn't rejected by the Orthodox, but I can only imagine about the Lutherans. I do know Jack Chick has the Church teaching wrong in the same way you do, and your belief is not in keeping with what the Orthodox teach about Catholicism.

[GirlShortstop]

so, the Vatican had to step in and stipulate that the heretical teaching that Eternal Life is "the reward given by God for good works and merits" must be maintained amongst Roman Catholics.

WHO, what living breathing individual made that 'official determination' about heretical O.P.?

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him.  And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.  Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.  For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.'

Then the righteous will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?  When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?   When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?'

And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.  For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,  a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.'

Then they will answer and say, 'Lord, [see, they recognize Him, they believe He is Lord!] when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?'

He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.'   And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

You are incorrect. Trent has is right and you misinterpreted it. The refutation of your quote, and your misinterpretation, is there for all to see. The Church does not teach you get to Heaven by works, it teaches you build your faith and piety through faith and works, they go hand in hand. The crux is the meaning of the word justice. Here is means the reward of the already justified. Surly you can understand how the English language changes. CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema. I can only wonder how you missed the very first Canon. It isn't rejected by the Orthodox, but I can only imagine about the Lutherans. I do know Jack Chick has the Church teaching wrong in the same way you do, and your belief is not in keeping with what the Orthodox teach about Catholicism.

On the contrary.

Canon I only teaches that Man may not be justified "by his own works.... without the grace of God through Jesus Christ."

But I have never claimed that the Roman Catholic church teaches that Man is Justified by works apart from the grace of Christ; I have only maintained that the Roman Catholic church DOES teach that Good Works do increase Justification for the purpose of attaining Salvation.

If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema. Trent, Canon XXIV, On Justification

You accused me of "misinterpreting" Trent in saying so; but you have never demonstrated that I have misinterpreted Trent in any way. In fact, in your #80, you claimed that Trent was simply teaching that Good Works are "rewarded in Heaven". Well if THAT was all that Trent was teaching, then who could object? But, as is demonstrated by the evidence of the Vatican itself (my #87; your #68), that is NOT all that Trent was teaching. In fact, Trent was indeed teaching that Good Works increase Justification for the attainment of Salvation itself, not just "Rewards in Heaven":

The Catholic Church maintains, moreover, that the good works of the justified are always the fruit of grace. But at the same time, and without in any way diminishing the totally divine initiative, they are also the fruit of man, justified and interiorly transformed. We can therefore say that eternal life is, at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merits.

This concurs with what I have said all along, and demolishes your fraudulent attempt to downplay Trent's heretical teaching, and your accusations that I have "misinterpreted" that teaching.

Now, sure, the Romanist Church does claim that "the good works of the justified are always the fruit of grace", in that God gives Man the ability to perform Good Works at all. But that's like saying "Climb this ladder (Good Works) to be Saved -- and it's all of Grace because God gave you the arms with which to climb." Yes, it's true, God gave you the arms with which to climb; but the Dogma "climb this ladder, to be Saved" is still a radically different teaching than the Lutheran teaching "You are Saved, to climb this ladder" or the Orthodox teaching that "You are being Saved, to climb this ladder".

In the end -- you've failed to show that I have misinterpreted Trent in any way; You have in turn mis-stated the teaching of Trent yourself; and the Vatican evidence we have cited demonstrates that I have correctly characterized the teaching of Trent all along, and you have not.

[Dominick]

In fact, Trent was indeed teaching that Good Works increase Justification for the attainment of Salvation itself, not just "Rewards in Heaven":

Nope his is untrue from the text of Trent, and the Teachings of the Church.

Salvation is by the Mercy of God. After that works on Earth build your faith on Earth, but through Baptism we are one of the inheritors of Heaven. Trent shows as much, but in isolation, Trent isn't as powerful. I attempted to show your position is incorrect in regards to Catholic teaching by using the Catechism, but you have a fixation on Trent.

In the end -- you've failed to show that I have misinterpreted Trent in any way; You have in turn mis-stated the teaching of Trent yourself; and the Vatican evidence we have cited demonstrates that I have correctly characterized the teaching of Trent all along, and you have not.

This is cute. No not at all, and my point was explaining Catholic doctrine, not refuting you. The world doesn't revolve around you. You couldn't understand Trent without an understanding of Catholicism, and your prejudice blinds you to the meaning of the documents of Trent.

They boil down to saying that the Mercy of God is a gift that enables us to do good works, and by those works, we can help ourselves and others.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

In fact, Trent was indeed teaching that Good Works increase Justification for the attainment of Salvation itself, not just "Rewards in Heaven": Nope his is untrue from the text of Trent, and the Teachings of the Church.

You're wrong. Yet again. Trent teaches that Good Works increase our Justification before God for the purpose of attaining Salvation itself:

If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema. Trent, Canon XXIV, On Justification

Your attempt to downplay and explain away the Anathemas of Trent by claiming that Trent was only teaching that Good Works attend to "Rewards in Heaven" has been refuted by the Vatican itself:

The Catholic Church maintains, moreover, that the good works of the justified are always the fruit of grace. But at the same time, and without in any way diminishing the totally divine initiative, they are also the fruit of man, justified and interiorly transformed. We can therefore say that eternal life is, at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merits.

And here's the Acid Test -- let's hold you to the Teachings of your own church.

Stipulating in advance that the ability to perform Good Works is granted by the grace of God, DO YOU AFFIRM, OR DENY, that "eternal life is the reward given by God for good works and merits"?

Deny this, and you deny the teachings of the Vatican itself.
Affirm this, and you prove what I have said all along.

Salvation is by the Mercy of God. After that works on Earth build your faith on Earth, but through Baptism we are one of the inheritors of Heaven. Trent shows as much, but in isolation, Trent isn't as powerful. I attempted to show your position is incorrect in regards to Catholic teaching by using the Catechism, but you have a fixation on Trent.

A "fixation of Trent"?

Your church only anathematized everyone who wasn't Roman Catholic therein, and considered Trent so important she went 300 years without holding another Council thereafter.

Try to dodge and downplay Trent all you want -- you're stuck with it.

This is cute. No not at all, and my point was explaining Catholic doctrine, not refuting you. The world doesn't revolve around you. You couldn't understand Trent without an understanding of Catholicism, and your prejudice blinds you to the meaning of the documents of Trent.

Raw Bulverism on your part.

You don't like being held to the exact wording of Trent, and the pronouncements of the Vatican, so you're attempting to "shoot the messenger".

Such is the debate tactic of a hack, and it won't fly.

They boil down to saying that the Mercy of God is a gift that enables us to do good works, and by those works, we can help ourselves and others.

No, they don't.

They boil down to saying that "Good Works are a cause of the increase of Justification" and "eternal life is the reward given by God for good works and merits". Granted, the Roman Catholic church reserves that it is "all of Grace" in the sense that it is only by the grace of God that we have the ability to perform Good Works. Fine and Dandy.

But, as I said before -- Stipulating in advance that the ability to perform Good Works is granted by the grace of God, DO YOU AFFIRM, OR DENY, that "eternal life is the reward given by God for good works and merits"?

Deny this, and you deny the teachings of the Vatican itself.

Affirm this, and you prove what I have said all along.

[SoothingDave]

Any Justification which must be preserved via Good Works, and increased via Good Works, is not a "finished action".

#1, you continue to talk of "Good Works" as if they were something we did apart from God's Grace. It is misleading, to say the least, of you to frame responses in this manner. Unless you truly don't understand that our "Good Works" are the result of grace and not our own action.

#2, I am sure you committed to providing food for your children. But I doubt you gave them all 18 years' worth of food on the first day.

In the same way, God's committment to deliver grace to us, to transform us and to enable our good works, while "completed" in eternity, must play out in our time.

SD

[Dominick]

And here's the Acid Test -- let's hold you to the Teachings of your own church.

Stipulating in advance that the ability to perform Good Works is granted by the grace of God, DO YOU AFFIRM, OR DENY, that "eternal life is the reward given by God for good works and merits"?
Deny this, and you deny the teachings of the Vatican itself. Affirm this, and you prove what I have said all along.

This isn't the teaching of the Church, and you are full of beans.

I hold to what the Church teaches, and this isn't what the Church teaches. You are again using a straw man, and misusing emphasis. The first is a fault of logic, the second is the fault of your education in netiquette.

Your church only anathematized everyone who wasn't Roman Catholic therein, and considered Trent so important she went 300 years without holding another Council thereafter.

You can't call anathema on someone outside the Church. You misunderstand the meaning of anathema. "Let him be anathema" means you are subject to being put outside the Church, if you are already outside the house, how can you be more outside?

Calling me a hack, a fraud, and misrepresenting the Church is all you seem to be able to do.

From the CCC:
2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life." The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."
...
2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God's mercy.
2021 Grace is the help God gives us to respond to our vocation of becoming his adopted sons. It introduces us into the intimacy of the Trinitarian life.
2022 The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. Grace responds to the deepest yearnings of human freedom, calls freedom to cooperate with it, and perfects freedom.
2023 Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.
2024 Sanctifying grace makes us "pleasing to God." Charisms, special graces of the Holy Spirit, are oriented to sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. God also acts through many actual graces, to be distinguished from habitual grace which is permanent in us.
2025 We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace. Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration. Man's merit is due to God.


This is the authority of the Church's Doctrines, and they are not what you are proposing they are. Good works are the result of Grace from God, our Good works are because of inspiration.

Framing the discussion as you have been doing is a straw man argument, the positions you assign the Church are not the positions they hold.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Stipulating in advance that the ability to perform Good Works is granted by the grace of God, DO YOU AFFIRM, OR DENY, that "eternal life is the reward given by God for good works and merits"? Deny this, and you deny the teachings of the Vatican itself. Affirm this, and you prove what I have said all along. ~~ This isn't the teaching of the Church, and you are full of beans.

Look, I'm gonna make this real simple.

From the Vatican:

The Catholic Church maintains, moreover, that the good works of the justified are always the fruit of grace. But at the same time, and without in any way diminishing the totally divine initiative, they are also the fruit of man, justified and interiorly transformed. We can therefore say that eternal life is, at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merits.

So here's my question for you:

Stipulating in advance that the ability to perform Good Works is granted by the grace of God, is it True in any sense that "eternal life is the reward given by God for good works and merits"?

Well? True, or False?

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

you continue to talk of "Good Works" as if they were something we did apart from God's Grace.

No, SD; as I said in my #95, I will stipulate that the Roman church teaches that it is God's grace which gives us the ability to perform Good Works. But that being said, let me ask you the same question I have asked Dominick:

Here is the teaching of the Vatican:

"The Catholic Church maintains, moreover, that the good works of the justified are always the fruit of grace. But at the same time, and without in any way diminishing the totally divine initiative, they are also the fruit of man, justified and interiorly transformed. We can therefore say that eternal life is, at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merits."

Alright, then...

Stipulating in advance that the ability to perform Good Works is granted by the grace of God, is it True that "eternal life is the reward given by God for good works and merits"?

Well? True, or False?

[Dominick]

From the Vatican:

The Catholic Church maintains, moreover, that the good works of the justified are always the fruit of grace. But at the same time, and without in any way diminishing the totally divine initiative, they are also the fruit of man, justified and interiorly transformed. We can therefore say that eternal life is, at one and the same time, grace and the reward given by God for good works and merits.

Where? What document. I quoted the definitive Church position.