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To: Dominick; kosta50; MarMema; redgolum
You are incorrect. Trent has is right and you misinterpreted it. The refutation of your quote, and your misinterpretation, is there for all to see. The Church does not teach you get to Heaven by works, it teaches you build your faith and piety through faith and works, they go hand in hand. The crux is the meaning of the word justice. Here is means the reward of the already justified. Surly you can understand how the English language changes. CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema. I can only wonder how you missed the very first Canon. It isn't rejected by the Orthodox, but I can only imagine about the Lutherans. I do know Jack Chick has the Church teaching wrong in the same way you do, and your belief is not in keeping with what the Orthodox teach about Catholicism.

On the contrary.

Canon I only teaches that Man may not be justified "by his own works.... without the grace of God through Jesus Christ."

But I have never claimed that the Roman Catholic church teaches that Man is Justified by works apart from the grace of Christ; I have only maintained that the Roman Catholic church DOES teach that Good Works do increase Justification for the purpose of attaining Salvation.

You accused me of "misinterpreting" Trent in saying so; but you have never demonstrated that I have misinterpreted Trent in any way. In fact, in your #80, you claimed that Trent was simply teaching that Good Works are "rewarded in Heaven". Well if THAT was all that Trent was teaching, then who could object? But, as is demonstrated by the evidence of the Vatican itself (my #87; your #68), that is NOT all that Trent was teaching. In fact, Trent was indeed teaching that Good Works increase Justification for the attainment of Salvation itself, not just "Rewards in Heaven":

This concurs with what I have said all along, and demolishes your fraudulent attempt to downplay Trent's heretical teaching, and your accusations that I have "misinterpreted" that teaching.

Now, sure, the Romanist Church does claim that "the good works of the justified are always the fruit of grace", in that God gives Man the ability to perform Good Works at all. But that's like saying "Climb this ladder (Good Works) to be Saved -- and it's all of Grace because God gave you the arms with which to climb." Yes, it's true, God gave you the arms with which to climb; but the Dogma "climb this ladder, to be Saved" is still a radically different teaching than the Lutheran teaching "You are Saved, to climb this ladder" or the Orthodox teaching that "You are being Saved, to climb this ladder".

In the end -- you've failed to show that I have misinterpreted Trent in any way; You have in turn mis-stated the teaching of Trent yourself; and the Vatican evidence we have cited demonstrates that I have correctly characterized the teaching of Trent all along, and you have not.

93 posted on 10/01/2004 12:15:15 AM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
In fact, Trent was indeed teaching that Good Works increase Justification for the attainment of Salvation itself, not just "Rewards in Heaven":

Nope his is untrue from the text of Trent, and the Teachings of the Church.

Salvation is by the Mercy of God. After that works on Earth build your faith on Earth, but through Baptism we are one of the inheritors of Heaven. Trent shows as much, but in isolation, Trent isn't as powerful. I attempted to show your position is incorrect in regards to Catholic teaching by using the Catechism, but you have a fixation on Trent.

In the end -- you've failed to show that I have misinterpreted Trent in any way; You have in turn mis-stated the teaching of Trent yourself; and the Vatican evidence we have cited demonstrates that I have correctly characterized the teaching of Trent all along, and you have not.

This is cute. No not at all, and my point was explaining Catholic doctrine, not refuting you. The world doesn't revolve around you. You couldn't understand Trent without an understanding of Catholicism, and your prejudice blinds you to the meaning of the documents of Trent.

They boil down to saying that the Mercy of God is a gift that enables us to do good works, and by those works, we can help ourselves and others.
94 posted on 10/01/2004 4:12:27 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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