Posted on 09/28/2004 12:20:25 AM PDT by NJ Neocon
"At first it looked like whacked out propaganda - but the best lies always have truth to them."
"Help?"
Do you know what you are looking for? Do you know what you want?
Are you looking for reasons to disavow your baptism into the Catholic Church?
If you are, then the Catholics here can give you far more reason than you ever dreamt of. We don't even need to resort to quoting selective bits of the Bible out of context to convince you. We can tell you all about just how bad it is without resorting to parodies of "Mary worship" and "bread gawping" - we don't need to because we know how bad it really is - its far worse than Jack Chick could ever imagine - he doesn't really have a clue.
Lets face it, the Catholic Church is the greatest screw-up in history. Every time we mess up and get it so wrong, and the place is just crawling with poor know-nothing sinners. We've been infiltrated by communists, fascists, freemasons, homosexuals, liberals, paedophiles, liturgists, ephebophiles, heretics, modernists, secularists, racists, humanists, empiricists, rationalists, legalists, rubricists, atheists, satanists, evolutionists, terrorists, feminists, the Kerry's and Kennedy's, abortionists, euthanasiaists and creeps of every description. AND THAT WAS JUST LAST WEEK!
So, what do you want to know? Are you worried you won't fit in?
I know this is a dangerous question around here because it may gender 500+ posts of all sorts of factions confusing you all the more. But what precisely are the truths from the untruths you are trying to determine?
I'm pretty late in this thread, and there's been lots of good advice.
A couple of extra bits: to get a handle on Christianity in general, I'd recommend C. S. Lewis's _Mere Christianity._ He wasn't a Catholic, and he was trying to describe generic Christianity, so it's a good starting place.
Then I'd recommend Karl Keating's _Catholicism and Fundamentalism,_ which is a good explanation of what the Church is accused of teaching, and what it actually does teach.
Finally, I'd advise reading books by Catholics to find out what Catholics believe. Non-Catholics inevitably get at least a few details of it wrong, and Jack Chick gets a whole lot of it wrong. A couple of entertaining Catholic writers on Catholic teaching are Frank Sheed (especially his _To Know Christ Jesus_) and Scott Hahn.
It's a fairly important question -- worth looking into a bit!
Jack Chick is to serious contemplation of spiritual issues as to what an Evinrude outboard engine is to ice climbing technique on Mt. Everest.
The Catholic church has much to recommend it and much to condemn it. Jack Chick has only the latter, and is a boil on the posterior of any discussion of anything other than which meds to take first.
Jack Chick isn't innocent, he and his adherents are may as well be sponsors of the 'Jim Jones' lanes on the league night of the soul.
You're mistaken, siunevada.
When the allegedly "infallible" Romanist Council of Trent affirms that "none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification", she is simply affirming the Biblical doctrine that all of the humanely-benevolent works of UnBelievers are, being performed in a state of prideful Self-Righteousness, viewed by the All-Perfect Father as being "excrement-soiled self-coverings" (Isaiah 64:6)
Okay, great. Council of Trent affirms that the humanely-benevolent works of UnBelievers are are "filthy rags"...
But that's not what "NJ_Neocon" and I are talking about.
We're not talking about the basefulness and worthlessness the "things which precede justification" in UnBelievers; we're talking about the Justification of Believers before God.
On this subject, the "infallible" Romanist Council of Trent absolutely mandates upon all Roman Catholics (and pretending the authority to damn unto Hell all who disagree with her), an ADDITIVE formula of Salvation and Good Works -- "Faith + Racking up enough Good Works = Justification"
However -- this heretical notion of Believers increasing or "earning" their Justification before God by performing Good Works in order to rack up "Salvation Credits", is absolutely rejected by the Orthodox and the Lutherans, who declare together (Pan-Orthodox/Lutheran World Federation Joint Commission) in favor of the EVIDENTIARY formula of Salvation and Good Works, that Good Works are the necessary evidences which are produced by the True Faith which Justifies (which is what James was truly preaching; for it is impossible to suggest that Saint Paul and Saint James disagreed).
In short, that a Believer is Justified by True Faith, and NOT by the Good Works produced thereof, lest any man should boast in his works:
In fact, even if they did not charitably admit the supplicant Lutherans into participation in their ancient Counsels, the Eastern Orthodox affirmation of Justification by Continuance in True Faith, of which Good Works are not ADDITIVE to Justification (as mandated by the false Romanist Council of Trent) but rather are the EVIDENTIARY "Fruits and Manifestations" of the True Faith which Justifies, is absolutely affirmed by the Canons of Eastern Orthodoxy -- wholly independent of her most gracious and charitable reception of the Lutheran supplicants who have sought Constantinople throughout the centuries, and do so today.
And this Eastern Orthodox teaching -- indeed, her very "Canon to Jesus" -- is also, more importantly, the Teaching of the Bible:
BLESSED MOTHER CONSTANTINOPLE is able to recieve, from her Protestant supplicants in the West, their Affirmations of Salvation by Grace Alone, through Faith Alone; for indeed, according to her own Canons and Patristics, obeying the Scriptures, she taught this doctrine first, and has for 2,000 years, before there ever was such a thing as a "Western Protestant"
Rightly understanding our Good Works to be the Fruits and Manifestations of our Continuation in the God-given Obedient Faith which Justifies in Christ Alone, and not an ADDITIVE towards the EARNING of Justification as mandated by the false and heretical "infallible" Council of Trent...
MOTHER CONSTANTINOPLE upheld the right and true understanding of Saving Faith until such time as, in God's good Predestination, Luther and Calvin procured good and accurate copies of the blessedly-preserved Byzantine Text of the Scriptures -- and overthrew the corrupted Latin Vulgar text (sorry, Vulgate), challenged the False Supremacy of the Papacy, and set the Western World on fire for True Doctrine and World Evangelism.
How sweet, and how maternal, is the attitude of Mother Constantinople in receiving her Lutheran supplicants; in acknowledging the Doctrines of Salvation by Grace Alone, through Faith Alone which the Lutherans teach (and which, according to her own Greek language and understanding, Constantinople has always taught); in considering the Lutheran insights on God's prerogative over Predestination, and in return offering the Lutherans their Orthodox teachings on the Believer's duty of Active Obedience. It is no wonder that Luther reminded the Pope that "the Greeks are one-half the Body of Christ; and dare I say, the Better Half!" (from whence we derive the English marital expression).
What a contrast to the imperial arrogance of Empress Rome, who dictates unto all Christians the acceptance of her Un-Biblical and Un-Orthodox Errors, and who presumes to Damn for all Eternity those who would dare to disagree with her (Gee, I'm quite terrified of Rome's anathemas. I'm shaking. In my boots. Really).
Me, I'm a strict 5-Point Calvinist Orthodox Presbyterian (maybe the screen name gave it away). But if, for some reason, I should have to choose between Empress Rome and Mother Constantinople -- then I shall take Constantinople any day of the week, and twice on Sundays. Is my Calvinism out of step with Eastern Orthodoxy? No doubt about it. But unlike pederasty-covering, evangelism-denying Apostate Rome, Orthodox Constantinople has never formally damned me to Hell for my belief in the Predestinarian Scriptures of the Bible.
CONFESSIONS OF A BYZANTINE-RITE CALVINIST
Best, OP
Rather fascinating, OP. You outdid yourself.
All the best.
Trust your initial instincts. ;)
Thanks so much for your understanding and compassion.
During the last Great Lent (as Marmema will remember), I was bitterly accosted by several Eastern Orthodox lay-persons on Free Republic who took offense at the parallels which I was drawing between Reformation Protestant beliefs, and Greek Orthodox beliefs.
I did not mean to cause a war, and I certainly did not take offense; but upon review -- I am ever-more committed to my thesis: while the structure of Reformation Protestant and Greek Orthodox beliefs are very dis-similar, the substance admits of some parallels.
Protestants tend to believe in a "Specific Point" of Saving Faith, whereas the Greek Orthodox tend to believe in a "Continuing Process" of Saving Faith. This is an important difference, attending to Baptism, Perseverence, and many other differences in doctrine. However, both locate Salvation in the Agency of SAVING FAITH in the Work of Christ Alone (whether Protestant single-point or Orthodox continuing-process), and both consider Good Works to be the evidentiary outworking of this Saving Faith, and thus Salvation is NOT acheived through a Romanist-Council-of-Trent dogma of performing a sufficient number of Good Works in order to acheive Justification "by the numbers".
The first time I read the Old Orthodox Canon to Jesus, I could have sworn I was reading a Reformation Protestant Prayer...
But on reflection, given that y'all have about 15 centuries of Seniority on us, it seems to me more likely that Luther was cribbing from your Cliffs Notes, than that y'all were cribbing from his.
If that be the case (and I should do more research; but I doubt that the "Old Orthodox Canon to Jesus" is a Theological Novelty), then according to a Greek and Eastern understanding of the Doctrine, the Church has always taught Salvation by Grace Alone, through Faith Alone, showing Good Works as the Necessary Evidences; and the Romanist-Trent Formula of ADDING Good Works to Faith in order to EARN Justification is the true Theological Novelty; and on these points, Luther's Revolution might be regarded (at least in part) as a re-affirmation of the correct Greek Teaching in the errant Latin West.
After all, Luther always did think quite well of y'all. I need to do more research, but the obvious contrasts between the agreement of the "Lutheran-Orthodox Joint Commission" and the "Old Orthodox Canons" versus the Romanist Council of Trent, does lay an interesting groundwork.
Best, OP
Not desirable. Lutheranism is a Noble Reformation Faith (albeit, Calvinism is better still -- OP's bias showing), and worth fighting for.
But that said... better the orthodox Bosphorus with its flaws, than the utterly-apostate Tiber.
Assertion, not Argument.
You are claiming as much, not because I am Wrong -- but because I am Right.
And that bothers you.
I have provided the exact wording of Trent, Canon 24, "On Justification", above. Please demonstrate PRECISELY where and exactly how I have "misread and misappropriate Trent".... else be found Guilty of Bearing False Witness, and Violating the Ninth Commandment.
And this better be good. If your logic is not ruthlessly precise, I will see through it immediately.
(Check the National Collegiate Debate Ranks to find out the last time the American Catholic University beat Jerry Falwell's nation-dominating Liberty University... and then ask me my Alma Mater.)
I extend Charity to those who do not accuse me of Lying. You, however, have maliciously done so.
Prove your case, and don't Err.
Or retract your Slander, and walk away.
"If anyone says that the justice received Council of Trent
I'm still not getting it.
The Council says 'justice received' and you seem to say they really mean justice "earned".
Even though they never say that anywhere in their documents and express clearly that the justification of believers is not merited by anything the believers do.
On the contrary.
And they go on to say that if any claim that "the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema".
In short, if you deny that the Believer preserves and increases his Justification before God by racking up enough Good Works, or if you affirm that Good Works are the Fruit and Manifestation of True Faith (as Orthodoxy teaches) rather than an Addition thereto (as mandated by the heretical Council of Trent)...
Then your Doctrine is Eastern Orthodox, not Romanist; and I'll expect to see your Resignation from Rome and your Application to Enter the Communion of Orthodoxy on Kosta and Marmema's desks, first thing next morning.
Best, OP
Sometimes folks need understanding and compassion, sometimes they need a cold bucket of water to wake them up.
Everyone from Reformed to Roman Catholic has given you a consistent answer about the Chick tracts. NYer has given specific suggestions which are helpful in exploring where you stand with regard to Catholic teaching.
You claim to be confused, but deep down you know which way you are being pulled, either toward or away from the Catholic church. You are just fighting it (or more accurately, the Holy Spirit.)
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