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To: Tantumergo
Everything you say, unfortunately, is true...and I say this with great sadness since half my family was originally converted by St. Patrick (whose Icon is before me as I write this). I will respond to Vicomte13's 2 posts this evening as they deserve a complete response, but I do have a suggestion, which I hesitate to make, but do make with all humility, I hope. You can always come over and be Chrismated in the Orthodox Church and from here tell the Roman brother about the Church from a distinctive point of view. Or, as NYer has done, go over to an Eastern Rite Catholic Church like the Maronites or the Melkites. I realize that what I am suggesting may seem like abandoning your Mother, the HMC, in Her darkest hour, but it may be what is needed. Please believe me when I say I mean no offense at all and trust that none will be taken by my suggestion.
34 posted on 09/23/2004 11:58:58 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Nuke the Cube!)
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To: Kolokotronis

It is difficult.

I have had Christmas dinners and Easter celebrations in a Russian Church. I noted the icon to St. Patrick in the corner. I have been to too many Orthodox funerals. I walked the circle holding a crown in my best friend's wedding, and made the assembled (Orthodox) families smile by the mirror image crossing myself alongside my friend's brother.
I think that the two-fingered/three-fingered circle of the crossing hand is intensely symbolic, and so I myself use it.

I disagree fundamentally with the Catholics and the Orthodox that these are two different Churches. They are not. What goes on in the Orthodox Church is my church too. And what goes on in the Roman Church is your church too. Communion is communion, and reconciliation is reconciliation, and if I were in a place unserved by Roman Churches, I would attend Orthodox Liturgy and take Communion there, because it is Communion, and I would say confession there too, because it is confession. An Orthodox priest is a Priest. A Roman priest is a Priest. Men and authorities say that they are different, but those men and authorities are wrong, all of them.

That said, I am a creature of law. Obedience is itself a virtue. Defiance of lawful authority is a sin. I live in a place where there is a Catholic Church...two in fact...and I prefer one over the other. I attend the one I do not prefer because I live one block inside of the parish boundary. The pastor of the Church himself has said that from his perspective, the most important thing is that people GO to church, not the boundary line of the parishes. While I understand his pastoral sentiment and do not think he is wrong, I know the Canon Law, and I know that I am obligated to attend the Church in my parish. Because the Bible or Jesus says so?
No. We are not Protestants, we Catholics (and by "Catholic", I always mean Orthodox and Roman/Latin/Western Catholics). Jesus, in the Bible, says to obey the duly constituted authorities, and Jesus leaves a Church, not a bible dispensary. The Church has established canon laws, and I am subject to them.

The Church has relaxed its own practice of the Canon Laws, and could choose to abolish the rule. I wish she would. But until she does, I will soldier grimly on. To do otherwise would be disobedient.

However, I believe that the Orthodox Church IS the Catholic Church. And I believe that it was made so by God, at one with the Roman Church which are both part of the Catholic Church. I accept the authority of the prelates over me who tell me that I must attend the Latin Rite, and do so (even though it is not very Latin at this point). But I reject the political arguments in totum. Pope and Patriarch say that these are two Churches. But I have spoken with God, and they are wrong. This is one Church divided in two. And we are under a duty to bind its wounds and make it one again.

For me to take Communion in an Orthodox service would be for me to break the law under which I am bound by the duly constituted authorities over me. I won't do it. Although I do attend Liturgy, occasionally, as the Cathechism permits.
For me to accept the argument that these are really two Churches would be for me to directly defy God and follow the bickering traditions of men. I won't do that.
I will continue to take Communion in the Roman Rite, because the law requires me to, and it has the right to do so.
And I will continue to recognize the Orthodox Church up the street as the Catholic Church, because God tells me so, and no man has the right to presume to countermand God.
That's the long and the short of it.

Ideally, my own Catholic Church would restore the Roman rite in Latin. As it is, the only Latin I ever get to sing is the occasional choral piece when our choir director assigns it.


35 posted on 09/23/2004 1:32:55 PM PDT by Vicomte13
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To: Kolokotronis

"but I do have a suggestion, which I hesitate to make, but do make with all humility, I hope."

I take it in the spirit you offered it...

"You can always come over and be Chrismated in the Orthodox Church and from here tell the Roman brother about the Church from a distinctive point of view."

...however, I could not accept it as I am already both Chrismated and Ordained and to attempt to repeat such a Sacrament would be heresy.. ;)

"Or, as NYer has done, go over to an Eastern Rite Catholic Church like the Maronites or the Melkites."

That sometimes has its appeal as I know the Melkites quite well and they are in union with Rome. However, as much as there is assailing her at the moment, Rome is where I am called by God to be, and I firmly believe that it is she who will always be the centre of unity of His Church on earth. Much though he makes me tear out my hair at times, the Pope is my spiritual father and I love him as such even if I am sometimes critical of his actions.

"Please believe me when I say I mean no offense at all and trust that none will be taken by my suggestion."

None taken. If you ever feel like you need to fight some real heretics, come on in, the water's lovely! ;)


42 posted on 09/23/2004 6:23:59 PM PDT by Tantumergo
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To: Kolokotronis

Abandoning the church to go to an alien organisation? Never. THe Latin rite church is still growing, still pusling with life. stop looking at things throught he narrow prism of the US. Even if you DO insist on doing so, note that the ORthodox churchs in the US are equally corrupted by the Liberals. To reject the teachings of the Mother church and go astray is the worst thing a Catholic can do.


87 posted on 09/27/2004 3:59:53 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
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