[Vicomte13]

It is difficult.

I have had Christmas dinners and Easter celebrations in a Russian Church. I noted the icon to St. Patrick in the corner. I have been to too many Orthodox funerals. I walked the circle holding a crown in my best friend's wedding, and made the assembled (Orthodox) families smile by the mirror image crossing myself alongside my friend's brother.
I think that the two-fingered/three-fingered circle of the crossing hand is intensely symbolic, and so I myself use it.

I disagree fundamentally with the Catholics and the Orthodox that these are two different Churches. They are not. What goes on in the Orthodox Church is my church too. And what goes on in the Roman Church is your church too. Communion is communion, and reconciliation is reconciliation, and if I were in a place unserved by Roman Churches, I would attend Orthodox Liturgy and take Communion there, because it is Communion, and I would say confession there too, because it is confession. An Orthodox priest is a Priest. A Roman priest is a Priest. Men and authorities say that they are different, but those men and authorities are wrong, all of them.

That said, I am a creature of law. Obedience is itself a virtue. Defiance of lawful authority is a sin. I live in a place where there is a Catholic Church...two in fact...and I prefer one over the other. I attend the one I do not prefer because I live one block inside of the parish boundary. The pastor of the Church himself has said that from his perspective, the most important thing is that people GO to church, not the boundary line of the parishes. While I understand his pastoral sentiment and do not think he is wrong, I know the Canon Law, and I know that I am obligated to attend the Church in my parish. Because the Bible or Jesus says so?
No. We are not Protestants, we Catholics (and by "Catholic", I always mean Orthodox and Roman/Latin/Western Catholics). Jesus, in the Bible, says to obey the duly constituted authorities, and Jesus leaves a Church, not a bible dispensary. The Church has established canon laws, and I am subject to them.

The Church has relaxed its own practice of the Canon Laws, and could choose to abolish the rule. I wish she would. But until she does, I will soldier grimly on. To do otherwise would be disobedient.

However, I believe that the Orthodox Church IS the Catholic Church. And I believe that it was made so by God, at one with the Roman Church which are both part of the Catholic Church. I accept the authority of the prelates over me who tell me that I must attend the Latin Rite, and do so (even though it is not very Latin at this point). But I reject the political arguments in totum. Pope and Patriarch say that these are two Churches. But I have spoken with God, and they are wrong. This is one Church divided in two. And we are under a duty to bind its wounds and make it one again.

For me to take Communion in an Orthodox service would be for me to break the law under which I am bound by the duly constituted authorities over me. I won't do it. Although I do attend Liturgy, occasionally, as the Cathechism permits.
For me to accept the argument that these are really two Churches would be for me to directly defy God and follow the bickering traditions of men. I won't do that.
I will continue to take Communion in the Roman Rite, because the law requires me to, and it has the right to do so.
And I will continue to recognize the Orthodox Church up the street as the Catholic Church, because God tells me so, and no man has the right to presume to countermand God.
That's the long and the short of it.

Ideally, my own Catholic Church would restore the Roman rite in Latin. As it is, the only Latin I ever get to sing is the occasional choral piece when our choir director assigns it.

[Kolokotronis]

I'll simply reply to your most recent post and include my thoughts on the others here, though I think your last post actually and clearly sums up where you are and probably where you are headed.

I agree with you that the basic problem is organizational. The ecclesiology of the Roman Church is completely foreign to anything in the East, before or since the Great Schism. The historical reasons why the Church in the West became what it is are interesting, (and may tell us a great deal about the attempted imposition of the filioque on the Church by Rome) but add nothing to answering the question of why that difference in ecclesiology makes it so very unlikely that there will be any communion between the Orthodox and Roman Churches. NYer quoted someone who rather precisely laid out the differences between the East and Rome. That is the phronema difference I have been talking about here and there on these threads. In the early centuries of the Church, the Roman Church was orthodox both in teaching and in praxis. For undoubted historical reasons, the "syndesmos"
among people, clergy and hierarchs became shattered as the Roman Church took over many of the functions of government. Hierarchs became temporal Lords, with the Pope the Temporal Lord of all Temporal Lords. Other hierarchs became like baronial vassals of the Pope, the priests the vassals of the the hierarchs and the Laous tou Theou, the very People of God, became the serfs, both socially and within the Church. The Roman Church burned people for translating the Bible into the vernacular, lest the people read and question the dogmatic pronouncements of the hierarchs and ultimately the Pope. And in the Orthodox East? The people were known to riot over what they considered to be non-canonical pronouncements of their hierarchs, even on fine points of the Faith. Why? Because they were educated in the Faith, read the Bible, discussed theology, and all of that then, as it is now, was seen to be an appropriate, if sometimes disturbing from the hierarchs' pov, role for the People of God. In the West the people were kept ignorant and silent and obedient, paying over from their very substance to sustain their betters. So what was the result? The excesses of the Middle Ages which lead to the rise of Protestantism, a revolution which, like the French Revolution, went quickly off the rails and wandered off into a theological wilderness where confusion and darkness reigned and reigns to this day. You see, things had gone just too far. But the Roman Church, instead of recognizing where its monarchical, even tyrannical, system had lead it, persisted in its error throughout the counter reformation , so that by the 1840s in Ireland, the Primate there saw no problem with the English policy of genocide against the Irish people and by the same time in Italy the Popes could issue bull after bull condemning the legitimate efforts of people all across Europe to throw out the oppressive regimes which ruled over them. The RCs who remained faithful to the Roman Church lowered their heads, said their prayers and trembled in the presence of the parish priest. During and after WWII, the Vatican supported the depredations of Croat Roman Catholics, under the leadership of their bloddy Cardinal and in league with the Nazis to destroy the Orthodox Serbs, because they wouldn't submit. By the 1950s, nuns in this country were still telling 6 year olds that there was no salvation for those who did not submit (SUBMIT !!!) to the Universal Pontiff at Rome. I know, it happened to me. It happens to this day on these threads. Then came Vatican II. You know, that always reminded me of the concessions made by the Czarist government or the Bourbons just before their people rose up and swept them away. In a revolution coming in response to too little, too late, the nuts and evil doers always seem to rise to the top. And that is just what has happened to the Roman Church at least here in America. Pro-abortion nuns, websites for gay priests, women priests, indeed! In the meantime, and lately, the scandal of pederasty has revealed the rot and corruption of a hierarchy, both here and abroad, too long accustomed to a laity, beaten down by a millennium of monarchism in the Roman Church, which simply pays, prays and obeys, obeys just like you say you must. As another poster has said, how could the laity just sit back and let this happen? Obedience, thats how, fear that it is a sin for you as a lay person to challenge evil in your hierarchy when you see it. It is your duty to disobey when the hierarchy becomes oppressive of the proper role of the laity or teaches heresy! The Roman system is collapsing here in America, with attendant horrors at a level apparently not see in Europe or elsewhere. It isn't surprising that it has happened here. In Old Europe, a post-modern socialist society with no belief except in comfort, it has just sort of melted away. But here, in the most religious Christian and at the same time demon plagued nation on Earth we are presented with this mess. Orthodox monks would say this is not surprising. Demons lurk where holiness abounds and in its own way, it does here. Once the lid came off the Roman pot in this country, in came the demons, and because neither the Roman hierarchs, nor the clergy nor the people had nor have anything to say, except "obey", it all comes apart. And it all stems from a denial of the proper syndesmos of the hierarchs, clergy and laity within the Church Christ himself established on Pentecost. How can we ever come into communion with that? How could we stand by praying our Divine Liturgies and practicing our ascetic practices while our brethren in the West, in communion with us, were subject to such a system. The union you suggest is impossible. We would never tolerate it, even if Rome left us totally alone. You've implied that we will let you stew in your own juice. That is not what we are doing. We pray for communion and the Roman Church. What more would you have us do if you yourself refuse to fulfill the duties incumbent upon you as a member of the Church? So what do you do? Well, I've made a couple of suggestions earlier which apparently aren't acceptable to you. Attending a Latin Mass won't do it. Try this: Stand up against the evil and corruption in the Church. Condemn heretical practices which have silenced the people and clergy in the West for 1500 years. Guide yourself by the writings of the Fathers and the praxis of the Church of the Seven Councils. Pray unceasingly for God's mercy. You may, in the end, get yourself excommunicated. If so, so be it.

[NYer]

I accept the authority of the prelates over me who tell me that I must attend the Latin Rite, and do so (even though it is not very Latin at this point).

I'm going to step out on a limb here and pray to our Lord that something in this will resonate with you.

I am a "baby boomer", baptized into the Roman Catholic Church. The ONLY liturgy I knew while growing up was the old Latin Mass. It was a great mystery to me and my family in that we followed along with our missals, as the priest mumbled in Latin. We NEVER questioned anything.

I distinctly recall one year when I was 7 or 8. It was Lent and certain members of the family were planning to attend the Midnight Mass (which took place at midnight!) I desperately wanted to join them and was given permission, on condition that I took a long nap in the afternoon. To this day, what stands out in that liturgy is the incense rising heavenward as the priest chanted the Litany of the Saints.

Shortly later, Vatican Council II ended, the altars were swung around, Eucharistic Ministers made their appearance, the organ and choir were replaced with guitars and singers.

2 years ago, someone in this forum recommended that I attend an Indult Tridentine Rite. I still had my missal, dusted it off and packed it up for the trip over to the church where this mass would be held. I was quite excited! Then the priest emerged from the side altar, wearing his beretta. Suddenly, I felt as though I had just stepped out of a time machine.

The altar servers were most impressive, giving their Latin responses. The choir sang Gregorian chant. And, suddenly, I realized that every aspect of this liturgy that had bothered me throughout me entire childhood, was still there. The altar boys were reciting "my" prayers. The choir was singing "my" hymns. Alone in that pew, I stared back at a beautiful liturgy. I was nothing more than an observer, a witness. I had NO participation whatsoever in what was happening before me.

Now, that may sound trite but it really isn't. My disappointment forced me to take a more introspective look at what I was seeking. Essentially, I sought a more reverent and spiritual approach to sharing in the liturgy of our Lord. It became apparent to me that I 'needed' to be a physical partner in that relationship, not just an observer or witness.

It took another two years before I turned to our Lord in prayer and asked Him to guide me to - a holy man, a valid liturgy and a welcoming community. As a Roman Catholic, it was also important to me that this liturgy and church be in total communion with the Holy See. That prayer was immediaely answered earlier this year, when I attended the Divine Liturgy at a Maronite (Eastern Rite) Catholic Church.

I can't begin to describe the awesome beauty of the Eastern liturgies. Having discovered one Eastern Rite church, and totally captivated by its respect for reverence, I sought to learn more. One book made that difference: "Captivated By Your Teacings", by Fr. Anthony Salim. In his book, he writes:

"Understanding the truths of the Faith may take different paths. In the Western Tradition of the Church, since the Middle Ages, one well-know path of doing theology has been summarized in the phrase, "faith seeking understanding" This approach has merit in that it begins with the acceptance of faith. However, its end-point, if too exaggerated, can leave one with primarily a rational point of view.

Eastern Tradition, on the other hand, recognizes that all reality is enveloped in a sense of Mystery (with a capital M). Some things may never be "figured out." I cannot always control my environment, my fiath journey, my life, perhaps the essence of faith lies in the trusting obedience I should have when I approach the greatest Myster y of all: our loving God."

After reading this, I had a more complete understanding of what drew me to that Midnight Mass at Easter and what has continued to draw me to the revised Novus Ordo liturgy over the years. It was indeed the "Mystery". The difference is that in the Eastern Rites, this is the norm.

My heart truly reaches out to you and I will hold you in my prayers, asking our Lord to deliver you to your destination on your journey of faith. Words are insufficient to express the profound gratitude I feel for having been guided to an Eastern Catholic liturgy. I firmly believe that God, in His infinite wisdom, reads the hearts of mortals, and 'feeds' them with the nourishment that will keep them alive. All we need do is place our trust in Him and ask for His guidance.