Posted on 09/21/2004 7:43:13 AM PDT by Tantumergo
Point well taken. I have heard Fr. Pacwa say the same thing about Semitic cultures, and it may be that by the time of the NT writers, a sufficiently "Semiticized" form of Greek was in vogue by which brothers was just translated "adelphos" for convenience.
Thanks!
St. John was special to Our Lord as it says in the Bible.
Jesus and his disciples criticized tradition and often disobeyed it. Jesus (contrary to the Catholic church) declared that tradition could be a bad thing in two circumstances.
1. When it contradicts scripture ("You therefore nullify the word of God with your traditions")
2. When it is elevated to an equal plain with scripture ("Teaching for doctrine the commandments of men")
The idea of the church and it's leaders being infallible is controverted by Paul warning the elders in Acts that even from their own midst people would come and try to destroy the flock of God. See also I Tim "they shall turn away their ears from the truth...". As a matter of fact, the vote that declared the Pope and the College of Bishops to be infallible only passed by a narrow margin. I guess only some of them were infallible that day, huh ?
The Apostles, with the exception of Saint James who had died, and of Saint Thomas who was brought later, were miraculously transported from the parts of the world where they were preaching to attend the death of Our Lady in Jerusalem, when She gave up Her immaculate and spotless soul to God.
Saint Timothy, Saint Denis the Areopagite and Saint Hierotheus, his friend, were also brought miraculously to Our Lady's bedside. Jesus Himself came down from Heaven to assist at Our Lady's death. Just before Mary died, Jesus gave Her the Blessed Eucharist, the Body and Blood which She had given to Him when She conceived Him at Nazareth.
Our Lady was buried reverently by the Apostles at the foot of the Mount of Olives, just below the place where Our Lord had sweat blood on the eve of His passion. It was not far from the grave where Saint Lazarus had been buried and raised from the dead by Jesus.
Mary's soul, during the interval when Her virginal body lay dead, was able to visit the souls in Purgatory so as to comfort and to release them, just as Our Lord's soul, during the three days He lay dead, went to comfort the souls in the Limbo of the Just. Our Lady was seventy-two years old when she died.
Sorry Vicomte13, I think I misinterpreted your question on a previous response. My personal vote goes with #2...I think it accords best with piety and the mind of the Church.
Where is this description from?
Actually, I do remember that parable. Thank God that the seeds of my faith were sown on fertile ground over 2k years ago.
It is traditional Catholic teaching, still taught today same as it always has been.
We'd argue exactly the opposite...that biblical interpretation on a blank slate, without recourse to how the Bible has *always* been interpreted makes it a useless document.
Look, to tie this back to the matter at hand, the point is that ideas of Mary go all the way back to the earliest centuries, and the early Christians had a decidedly "higher" view of her than many Christians today are willing to grant. You can certainly say that such a high view contradicts Scripture--very well, but then you're asking me to rely on your interpretation, which you will freely admit is not infallible itself. And, I might add, not only is it fallible but it is an interpretation that is fairly new in Christian history. As others have said on this thread, Martin Luther and other Reformers didn't even hold it.
I can't disagree with your premise more. You can't fake a 2000 year tradition--either you have a long chain of documents supporting a view or you don't. In this case, we do.
BTW...Mary is NOT a DEITY!
Thanks for the news flash. For your next scoop, you may want to find me the person on this thread who said she was. ;)
Interesting.
Thank you.
This tells us that, according to Tradition, Mary died a natural death. But it does not close the loop for me and answer why (or if) she HAD to.
Immaculately conceived and living a stainless life, she would seem to not have been under the curse of Adam, and therefore to be immortal like Adam and Eve were before the Fall.
I guess the answer really must be that, if she died, it was because she chose to "fall asleep in the Lord" and go to her Son. I would presume that Tradition would somewhere say that.
Saints and other learned RC theologins teach of God's woderfull works He created in Her, wonderfull accounts, telling of some of the "great things" God accomplished in Our Lady.
Doctor of the Church, Saint Alphonsus' analogy of Our Blessed Mother, using Ecclesiasticus 24:3 - 32, a book of the OT that was removed from protestant bible............
And in the midst of her own people she shall be exalted, and shall be admired in the holy assembly.
And in the multitude of the elect she shall have praise, and among the blessed she shall be blessed, saying:
I came out of the mouth of the most High, the firstborn before all creatures:
I made that in the heavens there should rise light that never faileth, and as a cloud I covered all the earth:
I dwelt in the highest places, and my throne is in a pillar of a cloud.
I alone have compassed the circuit of heaven, and have penetrated into the bottom of the deep, and have walked in the waves of the sea,
And have stood in all the earth: and in every people,
And in every nation I have had the chief rule:
And by my power I have trodden under my feet the hearts of all the high and low: and in all these I sought rest, and I shall abide in the inheritance of the Lord.
Then the creator of all things commanded, and said to me: and he that made me, rested in my tabernacle,
And he said to me: Let thy dwelling be in Jacob, and thy inheritance in Israel, and take root in my elect.
From the beginning, and before the world, was I created, and unto the world to come I shall not cease to be, and in the holy dwelling place I have ministered before him.
And so was I established in Sion, and in the holy city likewise I rested, and my power was in Jerusalem.
And I took root in an honourable people, and in the portion of my God his inheritance, and my abode is in the full assembly of saints.
I was exalted like a cedar in Libanus, and as a cypress tree on mount Sion.
I was exalted like a palm tree in Cades, and as a rose plant in Jericho:
As a fair olive tree in the plains, and as a plane tree by the water in the streets, was I exalted.
I gave a sweet smell like cinnamon. and aromatical balm: I yielded a sweet odour like the best myrrh:
And I perfumed my dwelling as storax, and galbanum, and onyx, and aloes, and as the frankincense not cut, and my odour is as the purest balm.
I have stretched out my branches as the turpentine tree, and my branches are of honour and grace.
As the vine I have brought forth a pleasant odour: and my flowers are the fruit of honour and riches.
I am the mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope.
In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue.
Come over to me, all ye that desire me, and be filled with my fruits.
For my spirit is sweet above honey, and my inheritance above honey and the honeycomb.
My memory is unto everlasting generations.
They that eat me, shall yet hunger: and they that drink me, shall yet thirst.
He that hearkeneth to me, shall not be confounded: and they that work by me, shall not sin.
They that explain me shall have life everlasting.
All these things are the book of life, and the covenant of the most High, and the knowledge of truth.
She was also following the example of her Son, since even He had to die.
I could honestly talk on this subject for days - but the short of it is - Our Lady died, not because of the punishment due us all for sin - for in Her was no sin, rather out of Her great humility. Her humility would not allow Her to be assumend, body and soul into Heaven without first submitting to the same death Her beloved Son did, but also proving that by so doing, She, as our Heavenly Mother, submitted to that same death that befalls us, Her children.
That makes sense. Thank you.
NO. I go only on what is in the New Testament. Not on "tradition." Opposing (or even questioning) the belief of an organization is not the same as opposing God himself.
I have a few questions. If Mary was sinless, then everything she spoke, thought, and did was without sin. If she spoke without sin, then nothing she said was erroneous. Do you agree? Would this mean that she was considered to have always spoken truth?
I also wonder about Mary's birth. If she was born without sin, would that not assume some blessedness to her parents? Are Mary's parents considered saints? Are they considered holy vessels of God? (since they bore the "Mother and Bride of Christ")
Can someone live a sinless life without being a diety?
makes no sence when the NT tells us we are bound to tradition.
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