Posted on 09/21/2004 7:43:13 AM PDT by Tantumergo
What about the Old Testament?
yes
I also wonder about Mary's birth. If she was born without sin, would that not assume some blessedness to her parents? Are Mary's parents considered saints? Are they considered holy vessels of God? (since they bore the "Mother and Bride of Christ")
Saint Joachim (4 B.C.) and Saint Anne (3 B.C.). Saint Joachim was the father of the Blessed Virgin Mary. His name is sometimes contracted into Heli or Eliacim, which means God has judged. God judged him to be worthy to be the father of the greatest of all God’s creatures. Saint Joachim’s wife was Saint Anne.
When Mary was born September 8, Saint Joachim knelt beside her for three whole days, looking upon her with awe and love and admiration. On September 12, he was inspired by God-as was Saint Anne, her mother –to give her the name Mary, which means both Lady and Star of the Sea. It was on September 15, the octave of Our Lady’s nativity, that Saint Joachim called his daughter Mary.
Saint Joachim was let known before his death that his child was to be the Mother of God. Mary was the only child of Joachim and Anne. Saint Joachim died when Mary was a consecrated virgin in the Temple of Jerusalem. She sent angels to guard her father in his last agony.
“Good Saint Anne” is the loving way many Catholics address the mother of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God. Mary, the Child of Saint Anne, was born fifteen years three months and seventeen days before the birth of Jesus. Fifty years after Saint Anne’s death, Saint Anne’s body was brought to France by Saint Mary Magdalen and her companions in the year 47. Countless churches have been dedicated to Saint Anne all over the world. Canada is particularly devoted to her, and has a beautiful shrine named for her there, called “Saint Anne de Beaupre,” to which people come from everywhere.
Simplicity is the secret by which we gain Saint Anne’s love, her intercession and her protection. Saint Anne taught her little daughter to read the Holy Scriptures. Mary was the fulfillment of all its prophecies. Sensing her daughter’s immaculate and incomparable holiness, beauty and brilliance, Saint Anne and Saint Joachim presented Mary in the Temple when she was three years old, and gave her to God and to us forever. The feast of this Presentation is November 21.
Can someone live a sinless life without being a diety?
I would like to say that with God all things are possible but in reference to your particular question, I would like to reference St. John the Baptist lived without sin.
The thing is, when we are born into this world with the Sin of Adam, even though that sin is removed through the Sacrament of Baptism, its remnant remains and is called the concupiscence of sin - or the tendancy toward sin. Not only was Our Lady created without sin, because of that fact, She was also lacking was any tendancy toward sin - ALL Her tendancies were toward God and humbly pleasing Him Her entire life.
"Actually, Christ predicted it"
Correct.
"although if you meant that the Bible doesn't record the event itself, you're correct."
That's what I meant! Also this latter point is very good evidence for all the NT being written prior to 70 AD which rather squelches a lot of the faulty biblical criticism that has been imbibed in the last century or so.
The word for "brothers" in Mark 6:3 is "adelphoi." Adelphoi also appears in Acts 1:15 where it says there were a hundred and twenty "adelphoi." I pity the poor woman who had one hundred and twenty sons! The culture in which Jesus lived used the term "brothers" much more loosely than we do; it could mean cousins, or other close relatives. Check out Galatians 1:19, "I saw none of the other apostles - only James, the Lord’s brother." This verse tells us that there is an apostle named James who is the Lord’s brother. Matthew 10 lists the apostles. There are two James’ - one is the son of Zebedee; the other the son of Alphaeus. Furthermore, Mark 6:3, Matthew 27:56 and John 19:25 taken together show that two of the "brothers" were children of Mary, the wife of Clopas. Mark 6:3 says James and Joseph (footnote n in NIV states: Greek Joses, a variant of Joseph) are "brothers" of the Lord. Matthew 27:56 says Mary, the mother of James and Joses, was at the crucifixion. John 19:25 says that this Mary is the wife of Clopas. Someone might object at this point; what about "until" in Matthew 1:25: "But he had no union with her until (heos) she gave birth to a son." Doesn’t this mean that he did have "union" with her after Jesus was born? The word "until" doesn’t necessitate that the opposite takes place after the "until" is fulfilled. For example: in 2 Samuel 6:23, Michal had no children until (heos) her death. Certainly, she didn’t have any after her death.
"For two people with such differing points of view, it is useless to argue unless we come together on the subject of Authority, which we will probably never do."
Certainly I agree with you on this point. All disputed questions of Faith finally come down to which authority one accepts.
It took ARCIC (the Anglican Roman Catholic International Commission) 30 years to come to this conclusion - I'm pleased to see that your wits are somewhat sharper!
But on what do you base your authority and why? What is your pillar and ground of the truth?
"BTW...Mary is NOT a DEITY!"
She is also not a bacon sandwich! What is your point?
Catholics need to stop praying to her as if she is a deity...Jesus is THE ONLY WAY...
Jesus is THE ONLY WAY.... to the Father, but there are multiple paths to the Son, Mary and the saints being the best way.
Catholics do not pray to Her as though She was a Diety. Do you think that Jesus Himself did not at times ask Her for things? Well, He wants for us to do the same.
And your Biblically based proof would be...?
24:25 In me is all grace of the way and of the truth, in me is all hope of life and of virtue.
Well, your "Reformer" ancestors cut some books out of the canon, so using your version isn't the same as mine. If you have 1st and 2nd Macabees in your edition, look there.
Uhhh...yeah...
Who put those books INTO the canon?
In response to Protestant views, the Roman Catholic Church made its position clear at the Council of Trent (1546) when it dogmatically affirmed that the entire Latin Vulgate enjoyed equal canonical status.
Likewise, Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, Jude, and Revelation are the Deuterocanonical books of the New Testament.
Like Pyro7480 said, look there.
You are right, She is not God, but she is the Holy Theotokos, the Panagia! The Troparion and Kontakion of the Orthodox Liturgy for the Dormition of the Holy Theotokos says it well:
Troparion (Tone 1)
In giving birth, you preserved your virginity!
In falling asleep you did not forsake the world, O Theotokos!
You were translated to life, O Mother of Life,
And by your prayers you deliver our souls from death!
Kontakion (Tone 2)
Neither the tomb, nor death, could hold the Theotokos,
Who is constant in prayer and our firm hope in her intercessions.
For being the Mother of Life,
She was translated to life by the One who dwelt in her virginal womb!
This is what The Church, at Rome and in the East has always and everywhere believed. Anything else is heresy!
"I have a few questions. If Mary was sinless, then everything she spoke, thought, and did was without sin. If she spoke without sin, then nothing she said was erroneous. Do you agree? Would this mean that she was considered to have always spoken truth?"
Mary would not have lied, but that doesn't mean she was omniscient. She was/is a human being and therefore her intellect would have been subject to ignorance like ours during her earthly life.
As to your questions about her parents, Stubborn has given some excellent answers to these in #122.
"Can someone live a sinless life without being a diety?"
Its not common, but Scripture does attest to this:
Lk 1,5 "In the days of Herod, King of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah of the priestly division of Abijah; his wife was from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6. Both were RIGHTEOUS IN THE EYES OF GOD, OBSERVING ALL THE COMMANDMENTS AND ORDINANCES OF THE LORD BLAMELESSLY."
There is also the case of St. John the Baptist who was sanctified from the womb:
Lk 1,15 "for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He will drink neither wine nor strong drink. HE WILL BE FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT EVEN FROM HIS MOTHER'S WOMB, and he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God."
"Jesus is THE ONLY WAY..."
Sure He is, but how did He arrange for you and me to get to hear about Him, if not by the testimony of His Saints?
We would be stuck in unbelief if other co-workers or co-mediators of Christ had not brought us to Him.
According to Scripture, Job committed no sins (Job 1), and the parents of John the Baptist also committed no sins (Luke 1).
They had the inherited sin of Adam, but they lived lives free of actual sin.
I know a bit about Greek, ancient, koine and modern. The NT and Septuagint used the words athelphos and athelphoi to mean both brother/brothers, cousin/cousins and brother or brothers in the sense of "Brother in Christ" Greek then and now is a flexible language. In any event, The Church both at Rome and in the East NEVER believed that the Theotokos had any children after the birth of Christ. The position that she did, and thus was not "Ever Virgin" denies Holy Tradition and is a relatively modern, European born heresy of the Reformation.
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