Posted on 09/20/2004 3:43:25 AM PDT by Stubborn
"If the Son is a King, then the Mother who bore Him should be looked upon as a queen and sovereign."
"Since the flesh of Mary was no different from that of Jesus, how can we deny to the Mother the same royal dignity we find in the Son? . . . So I would consider the glory of the Son not as something shared with His Mother, but as her glory too."
If Jesus is the King of the universe, then Mary is its Queen. And as Queen, she possesses by right the whole Kingdom of her Son.
Not true. A couple of examples:
Acts 23:1 Then Paul, looking earnestly at the council, said, "Men [and] brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day." But not after?
2 Kings 6: 23-
"Therefore Michol the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death."
Do you propose that after the day of her death Michol began having children?
You can tell me that Mary had no other children because that was gods will. To suggest a married couple never had sex is just silly.
Let's take these issues one at a time. He was claiming that the use of the word "until" meant that she ceased to remain a virgin after Jesus birth. I was providing another place where the word is used and it clearly doesn't mean that the condition which was true before ceases to be after. Another poster did the same with other examples before.
Mary didn't deny her husband. Joseph wasn't some guy who just wanted to get married and happened to pick the girl who wasn't interested in the marital bond (to put it delicately), living out his days getting the cold shoulder from his wife despite his every plea.
His role in the family was also laid out in the divine plan. He was to be the foster father of Jesus, and the protector of his family. It is safe to assume that this very holy man knew of the situation at hand before it took place. We do know that he was re-assured of his role by the angels. I do not picture Joseph, holy enough to be chosen to represent God in the family of the Divine Redeemer, saying "OK, yeah, Jesus, Son of God, sounds great, whatever. . . When do I get to consummate the marriage, though?"
"To suggest a married couple never had sex is just silly."
That statement is just silly. Why stop there. To suggest that someone would move into the desert, live on locusts, and have his head chopped off for the sake God is silly. To suggest that God would become man is silly, to say that a man walked on water or came back to life after being crucified is silly. Or are you saying that you can read the myriad heroic things in the Bible, and know of the great sacrifices (burnings, getting eaten by lions, hangings, etc) that Christians have made over the years for God, and you accept those things. But to suggest that the Mother of God would not have sex is "silly".
Do you think maybe that the woman chosen by God from all eternity to be the mother of the Divine Son might have had the bigger picture in her mind just a little more clearly than we do? Is it possible that, just maybe, she wasn't concerned about temporal pleasures or the things that this world had to offer her?
2Sa 6:23 Therefore Michol the daughter of Saul had no child to the day of her death.
It doesn't say "until". Besides this would be from the Hebrew text of the Old Testement and I was comparing the Greek text of the New Testement. Different translations, different meanings.
Mary was not conceived without sin. Jesus was.
Mat 28:15 So they taking the money, did as they were taught: and this word was spread abroad among the Jews even unto this day. (DR)
Mat 28:15 And they took the money and did as they had been instructed; and this story was widely spread among the Jews, and is to this day. (NASB)
Act 23:1 is also a different word but it doesn't matter. Paul was saying he lived his life with a good conscience "up until that day" meaning, of course, something changed.
Oops. Forgive me! I'm only a convert, and I am obviously momentarily insane. ; )
May God grant that I finally learn this and not exhibit confusion in the future.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07674d.htm
To all you faithful Catholics, I'd appreciate prayer.
It is most unfortunate that you use the tagline: "a faithful Catholic", as you have publicly proclaimed what is formal heresy by denying the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed and ever Virgin Mary.
The One, True, Holy, Roman, Catholic and Apostolic Church s formally defined the dogma of the Immaculate Conception in 1854. For a Catholic to deny this truth of the Faith is heresy - plain & simple. It is not an optional extra! Nor is the Catholic faith one in which one may pick and choose what he will and will not believe.
If you were a member of a Protestant sect I could excuse what you say, and debate the matter, as civilly as possible.
But for you to proclaim this heresy in a public manner calls for rebuke and correction. It is frankly a shame, since you call yourself a Catholic.
Ave Maria Purissima, Semper Virginem. Immaculata, Inviolata, Ora Pro Nobis, nunc et in mortis hora!
Yes, thor76, thank you. I was momentarily confused. I certainly know better, even though I'm a convert of 22 years.
Thanks for your prayers, sandyeggo!
No, same word, same meaning. The Greek word in both is "heos". I realize that the Douay Rheims doesn't say "until" in 2 Kings 6:23 (or 2 Samuel 6:23, depending on your bible), but that is simply a translation difference. The actual word is the same in both. The meaning is the same in both as well. The condition prior to the word "until" is not ended. Michol had no children after her death, and Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Christ.
It is good that you have realised your error - for the benefit of your soul.
May Mary, Mother of God, Mother of the Church, and Mother of us all keep you under her protection.
Remember that she is the most highly favored of God, of all created creatures. And that she always has the ear of her Son, Jesus. She is also the Mediatrix of all graces - which she will tenderly give to you, in great abundance, if you but ask. She always points the way to her Son, the Divine Redeemer.
Think on the words of the famous hymn "Hail, Holy Queen Enthroned Above". This is the prayer said at the end of the Rosary, which is also the famous Gregorian Chant: "Salve Regina". They are all one & the same.
Some persons who have had near death experiences, who were otherwise destined for hell have told the tale that they were given a second chance, becuase Mary pleaded for them with her Son - becuase at least once in the person's life they had said a rosary, or a very sincere "hail mary". Such prayers are very powerul. She persuaded Him to give the person a second chance, to reform their lives. When they were revived, they remembered this and had conversion, and great joy from knowing that what they had been taught of Jesus and Mary are very real. That the justice and mercy of Christ were very real - and that the loving intercessory power of Mary the mother was very real.
Your faith must be in Christ, and your obedience to his will and laws. But your helper in this veil of tears is the Virgin of Protection, Mary most holy. She will not turn away anyone who begs her help - she will give it in abundance, and show the way to follow her Son.
"Mother dear O pray for me!........."
Mary will always be Our Lady of Victories (Damn the Muslim fleet at Lepanto!)
***If you were a member of a Protestant sect I could excuse what you say, and debate the matter, as civilly as possible***
thor76,
Evangelical here, in search of civil discussion...
How can you hold that Mary never sinned in light of Paul's statement...
"But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it-- the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.
This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
- Rom 3
Specifically, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".
When answering please take into consideraton:
1. The universal scope of the the context to which Paul speaks (the "World" Rom 3:6 i.e. Jews and Gentiles Rom 3:9 - the whole on the known world.) The meaning of the word "all" depends on context (i.e. "all in the room"). The context of Romans 1-5 is clearly universal.
2. The fact that Jesus is manifestly exempt from the above "all" in Paul's passage being that he is clearly portrayed as spotless sacrifice (the "propitiation" of verse 3:25) by whose blood the sins of mankind is forgiven. Added to this is the fact that Paul explicitley states in 2 Cor 5 that Jesus "knew no sin"...
"All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
(PS I believe I owed you an email from long ago which you never received - please forgive me for this.)
I think that your question in in reference to the Catholic teaching of Mary's Immaculate Conception.
Because she was destined to bear in her womb the Divine Child Jesus, so as to be a pure vessel fo this purpose, Mary was born without the stain of Original Sin upon her soul. That is the meaning of the term "Immaculate Conception".
Christ himself was "begotten, not made. of one substance with the Father". He was not "conceived" in the normal human manner. Yet he was in his mother's womb - by the power of the Holy Spirit, and born of her.
But again the term "Immaculate Conception" refers only to Mary - as she was totally human, as you or I are.
I hope I answered that part for you. As to your question as to whether or not Mary ever sinned.....I will come back to that one, as my fingers are tired! But I will get to it!
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.
The Greek word in the New Testament is "heos". It means:
Of uncertain affinity; a conjugation, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and place): - even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-) til (-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while (-s).
While this may be all confusing, 'heos' is used 120 times in the New Testament. It is also translated as "while". Here are some references:
Mat 5:25 "Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
Mat 14:22 Immediately He made the disciples get into the boat and go ahead of Him to the other side, while He sent the crowds away.
Unlike the Hebrew word "yome", this Greek word "heos" always means a finite amount of time. Thus, Matthew 1:26 could be translated:
Mat 1:25 but kept her a virgin WHILE she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
Sorry, I looked through at least half of these 120 references and cannot find a different interpretation.
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