Some points to consider about the Queenship of Mary

5199 B.C. | King of Heaven

[fishtank]

I labored long and hard in Hebrews and Romans to prove otherwise.

For example: count up in Hebrews how many times it says that Jesus died "once for all" - which is not a reference to the Mass at all, it contradicts the idea of the Mass.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Are you claiming God does not have sovereignity over his creation? Do you claim to know the mind of God? Christ was born into the royal Davidic line. Are you denying the kingship of Christ?

I am very uncomfortable with the practice of picking and choosing Scriptures then attaching a meaning which fits one's personal agenda.

[chronotrigger]

Incorrect analysis. If I compare the color of a green car and the color of a green leaf, I'm not saying that the car is the same as the leaf. Just that one can be used to illustrate similarities (the color for example) or differences with the other.

Mary is and was not a God equal with Christ. She was elevated to that status by the early Catholic church in order to appeal to the pagan matriarchal tribes of Europe. Maryism is NOT biblically based; it is something the catholic church made up-much like selling indulgences to poor peasants for the remission of sin. God never intended for her to be a co-Saviour, as many catholics believe-falsely. Try actually reading the NT instead of doing and believing what others, and that foreign based Vatican, tell you.

[Quester]

The OT typology of kings and queens prefigured Christ the King and Mary as Queen Mother.

Once again ... such was not according to the desire of God.

1 Samuel 8:18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

Are you claiming God does not have sovereignity over his creation? Do you claim to know the mind of God? Christ was born into the royal Davidic line. Are you denying the kingship of Christ?

I am very uncomfortable with the practice of picking and choosing Scriptures then attaching a meaning which fits one's personal agenda.

I am saying that it is not reasonable to point to any given circumstance in the Old Testament ... and then ... to directly infer ... that such an OT circumstance prophesies God's intentions for His kingdom.

When one looks at the history of God's people Israel in the OT ... one finds many instances of circumstances where God has allowed such circumstances among His people ... while simultaneously condemning such among His people.

For example ... there is no question that God's people Israel erected an idol (golden calf) during the time when Moses was ascended to the top of Mt. Sinai to receive God's Law for His people (which included the Ten Commandments).

The fact that God allowed His people to commit such an abomination in no way indicates that such was His desire for His people.

In fact, God makes it quite clear that He is displeased with this action ... by taking the lives of those which worshipped the idol.

The same is true regarding the punishment God inflicted upon His people (plague) ... for their daliances with the Midianite seductresses (which He allowed).

The same is true regarding God's sending of the fiery serpents ... as punishment for Israel's constant grumbling in the wilderness (which He allowed).

The same is illustrated by God's allowance of Assyria and Babylon to overthrow and to take His people into captivity ... in response to their idolatry and ungodliness (which He had allowed).

My point is that you cannot use the fact that a circumstance simply occurs in the OT to justify that God has ordained such for His current/future kingdom.

The easiest example to consider is this one ...

Although we know that God allowed sin among His people in the OT, ... we also know that there wil be no sin in His kingdom to come.

The allowance of sin does not prefigure the presence of sin in God's ultimate kingdom.

A better case can be made for those OT circumstances which God ordained, rather than simply allowed.

God ordained His Law ... and His Law continues.

God ordained that Noah build the Ark ... and the Ark prefigures the saving power of God's Church to all who would come into her.

God ordained that the Hebrews smear the blood of the Passover lamb upon their doorposts ... and the blood prefigures the blood of Christ which saves us from death.

God ordained that the Hebrews follow Him into the Promised Land ... and this prefigures our following of Christ into God's promised rest.

God ordained that Moses fashion a serpent of bronze and hang it upon a pole (for the snake-bitten Israelites to gaze upon and be healed) ... and such prefigures the lifting up of Christ on the cross ... upon which we may gaze and be healed of our sinful condition.

God never ordained the concept of merely human kings (or queens) for His people. God commanded Samuel to attempt to persuade the Israelites to forego their desire for a king ... and to, rather, continue to place their trust in Him, their God, for their leadership.

But, upon the people's insistence, God allowed them to have their desire ... a king ... and they suffered as a result.

Of the 50 or so kings that, at one time or another, reigned over God's people ... only a dozen or so, at most ... were godly.

The remainder led Israel into sin and idolatry such that God was moved to allow His people to suffer death, despair, and captivity.

God desired better for His people ... but He allowed them to choose otherwise.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

You've gone off on a tangent in an attempt to prove your point. In doing so, you deny God's sovereignity and will, passive or overt, and ultimately deny the kingship of Christ.

Needless to say, I could not disagree more.

[Quester]

You've gone off on a tangent in an attempt to prove your point. In doing so, you deny God's sovereignity and will, passive or overt, ...

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Do you assert that any and every circumstance in the OT is a typology of God's will for His kingdom ?

... and ultimately deny the kingship of Christ.

Once again ... an incorrect conclusion.

Christ is King ... but not because he is man.

Christ is King ... because He is God.

That was the issue in Samuel's day ... God was Israel's King ... but Israel wanted a human king.

God granted them their desire ... and it was downhill for them from that point ... until God, once again, stepped in as King (in the Person of Christ).

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

The sovereignity of God over his creation and his gift of free will to man are an intricate interplay that man will never understand in this lifetime. Man does not rule God. Sometimes man insists on having his way and denies God's plan. God, having given us free will, allows us to make our own mistakes.

Israel received earthly kings. But guess which heavenly king was born into the earthly lineage of kings?

The typology fits perfectly.

[Quester]

The sovereignity of God over his creation and his gift of free will to man are an intricate interplay that man will never understand in this lifetime. Man does not rule God. Sometimes man insists on having his way and denies God's plan. God, having given us free will, allows us to make our own mistakes.

I agree.

Israel received earthly kings. But guess which heavenly king was born into the earthly lineage of kings?

The typology fits perfectly.

For the typology to fit perfectly ... Mary would have to be as unknown and unregarded ... as David's mother.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

As I previously mentioned, the title of Queen mother as an official position began with David's son Solomon. Thereafter, all mothers of the king are mentioned by name.

[Quester]

As I previously mentioned, the title of Queen mother as an official position began with David's son Solomon. Thereafter, all mothers of the king are mentioned by name.

You're sure of this ?

My research says that the mothers of the following Israelite kings are unnamed in the scriptures.

Ahab
Nadab
Baasha
Elah
Zimri
Omri
Jehu
Jehoahaz
Jehoash
Jeroboam II
Zechariah
Shallum
Menahem
Pekahiah
Pekah
Hoshea

Also ... the mother of Judah's king Ahaz is not named.

... and of those mothers of the kings of Israel which are named, ... none are titled queen, ... with the following exceptions ...

Maachah ... wife of King Abijah of Judah ... mother of King Asa of Judah.

King Asa removed Maachah from being Queen because of her idolatry.
--------------------------------------------------------

Jezebel ... wife of King Ahab of Israel ... mother of King Jehoram of Israel.

Scripture says King Ahab was the most wicked king that ever ruled in Israel ... and scripture further states that he was thus because he heeded to the voice of his wife Jezebel.
--------------------------------------------------------

Athaliah ... daughter of Ahab and Jezebel (see above) ... wife to King Jehoram of Judah ... mother to King Ahaziah of Judah.

Unfortunately good king Jehoshaphat of Judah married his son Jehoram to the daughter of then king of Israel, Ahab and his wife Jezebel.

Jehoram did not live much longer.

Ahaziah (Jehoram and Athaliah's son) did not last long as king either ... and when he had died ... Athaliah seized power in Judah ... and tried to have all of her dead husband's male descendents (rivals for the throne) killed.

All but one of Jehoram's male descendents were killed. Joash, Jehoram's youngest grandson, was hidden from Athaliah until he turned 12 and could claim the throne. One of his first acts as king was to order the death of Athaliah.

[P-Marlowe]

Amazing. We've gone over 100 posts and nobody's posted a picture of the Queen ship of Mary:

It's a pretty nice ship. I'll admit that, but this veneration stuff is a bit over the top, isn't it? After all, it's just a boat.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

I don't have time to go through every one of your cited names. Anyone can read III Kings after Solomon and see my point. In fact, you made it in one of your points.

We're beating a dead horse.

[HarleyD]

"The sovereignity of God over his creation and his gift of free will to man are an intricate interplay that man will never understand in this lifetime."

There's nothing to understand if you accept the belief of God's total sovereign control. But then, that just the Calvinist coming out. :O)

[Quester]

I don't have time to go through every one of your cited names. Anyone can read III Kings after Solomon and see my point. In fact, you made it in one of your points.

So ... who do you see as a typology for Mary ... Maachah (the idolator), ... Jezebel (the corruptor), ... or Athaliah (the murderess) ?

Mary is a beloved sister ... but you can search throughout the Old Testament (or New Testament) ... and you will find nothing which justifies the kind of exaltation the Catholic church has built up for her.

I'm sure Mary would implore us to ... listen to her Son.

Listen to her Son ...

Matthew 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

[fishtank]

I always liked "Proud Mary"...


PROUD MARY (J.C. Fogerty)

Left a good job in the city,

Workin' for The Man ev'ry night and day,

And I never lost one minute of sleepin',

Worryin' 'bout the way things might have been.

CHORUS:

Big wheel keep on turnin',

Proud Mary keep on burnin',

Rollin', rollin', rollin' on the river.

Cleaned a lot of plates in Memphis,

Pumped a lot of pane down in New Orleans,

But I never saw the good side of the city,

'Til I hitched a ride on a river boat queen.

CHORUS

Rollin', rollin', rollin' on the river.

If you come down to the river,

Bet you gonna find some people who live.

You don't have to worry 'cause you have no money,

People on the river are happy to give.

CHORUS

Rollin', rollin', rollin' on the river.

Rollin', rollin', rollin' on the river.

Rollin', rollin', rollin' on the river.

[P-Marlowe]

Pumped a lot of pane down in New Orleans,

That's 'tane not pane.

_{There's a bathroom on the right.}

[Stubborn]

LOL

[Salvation]

Queenship of the Blessed Virgin Mary

The Queenship of the Blessed Vrigin Mary
Memorial
August 22nd

CATARINO
Coronation of the Virgin
1375
Tempera on panel, 89 x 58 cm
Gallerie dell'Accademia, Venice

Collect:
Father,
you have given us the mother of your Son
to be our queen and mother.
With the support of her prayers
may we come to share the glory of your children
in the kingdom of heaven.
We ask this through our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son,
who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit,
one God, for ever and ever. Amen.

 

First Reading:
Isaiah 9:1-6
But there will be no gloom for her that was in anguish. In the former time he brought into contempt the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the latter time he will make glorious the way of the sea, the land beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in a land of deep darkness, on them has light shined. Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased its joy; they rejoice before thee as with joy at the harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. For the yoke of his burden, and the staff for his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as on the day of Midian. For every boot of the tramping warrior in battle tumult and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Gospel Reading:
Luke 1:26-38
In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!" But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call His name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His kingdom there will be no end." And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?" And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. For with God nothing will be impossible." And Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.

[Salvation]

From a homily by St. Amadeus of Lausanne, bishop

Queen of the world and of peace

Observe how fitting it was that even before her assumption the name of Mary shone forth wondrously throughout the world. Her fame spread everywhere even before she was raised above the heavens in her magnificence. Because of the honour due her Son, it was indeed fitting for the Virgin Mother to have first ruled upon earth and then be raised up to heaven in glory. It was fitting that her fame be spread in this world below, so that she might enter the heights of heaven on overwhelming blessedness. Just as she was borne from virtue to virtue by the Spirit of the Lord, she was transported from earthly renown to heavenly brightness.

  So it was that she began to taste the fruits of her future reign while still in the flesh. At one moment she withdrew to God in ecstasy; at the next she would bend down to her neighbours with indescribable love. In heaven angels served her, while here on earth she was venerated by the service of men. Gabriel and the angels waited upon her in heaven. The virgin John, rejoicing that the Virgin Mother was entrusted to him at the cross, cared for her with the other apostles here below. The angels rejoiced to see their queen; the apostles rejoiced to see their lady, and both obeyed her with loving devotion.

  Dwelling in the loftiest citadel of virtue, like a sea of divine grace or an unfathomable source of love that has everywhere overflowed its banks, she poured forth her bountiful waters on trusting and thirsting souls. Able to preserve both flesh and spirit from death she bestowed health-giving salve on bodies and souls. Has anyone ever come away from her troubled or saddened or ignorant of the heavenly mysteries? Who has not returned to everyday life gladdened and joyful because his request had been granted by the Mother of God?

  She is a bride, so gentle and affectionate, and the mother of the only true bridegroom. In her abundant goodness she has channelled the spring of reason’s garden, the well of living and life-giving waters that pour forth in a rushing stream from divine Lebanon and flow down from Mount Zion until they surround the shores of every far-flung nation. With divine assistance she has redirected these waters and made them into streams of peace and pools of grace. Therefore, when the Virgin of virgins was led forth by God and her Son, the King of kings. amid the company of exulting angels and rejoicing archangels, with the heavens ringing with praise, the prophecy of the psalmist was fulfilled, in which he said to the Lord: At your right hand stands the queen, clothed in gold of Ophir.

---