Posted on 07/26/2004 1:57:27 PM PDT by Lasher
Would like to know if there are any other Christians out there that have not swallowed Rick Warren's version of the Gospel. I left my "seeker-friendly" Church after much prayer and ponder, and it took several months to make the split. I still must speak with my former pastor about this, so until I do, I will not name my former Church. I have noticed that most who follow the "Purpose Driven" material are emotionally attached to it, much like true Christians are emotionally tied to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Great point.
>> Christians are supposed to be Holy Spirit lead.
NOT PURPOSE DRIVEN!<<
Well. Sort of. Although all of the apostles may have been led by the Holy Spirit, they were also most definitely purpose driven. And Jesus most definitely was.
The Holy Spirit leads you to your Purpose. You then "drive" to your purpose.
You made broadside blackwashing assertions about Rick Warren which I have proven wholesale false.
You refuse to admit it.
Rick Warren's choice of Scriptures and his comments on those Scriptures and principles are
ANYTHING BUT
fluff. And you know it.
Either you are blind to part of what you know in your heart or you are deliberately deceptive and dishonorable about Rick Warren's teachings in the books mentioned.
The issue of fawning over anything is your straw dog.
I didn't accuse you of blaspheming The Lord and you know it.
I accurately accused you of being dishonorable toward Rick Warren and owing him before Christ repentance and an apology.
That assessment still stands and all the more accurately so.
You couldn't handle the proof that Rick Warren's statements were the opposite of fluff so you launched into a very hypocritical attack.
I think I'm about over bothering with you about this.
God knows the Truth and will make it thunderously evident to you at some point in His time. I don't think you'll enjoy the lesson.
Your statement about us running the show
IS THE OPPOSITE OF RICK WARREN'S TEACHINGS
AS MY POSTS PROVE ABUNDANTLY.
Either you have trouble reading them or wish to be dishonorable anyway. You would likely have a hard time being more incorrect, inaccurate and wholesale wrong, if you tried hard.
Being Spirit Led means that one is more purpose driven than ever before Holy Spirit started leading them.
I'd have thought that you would have wrapped your mind around that one before posting something so foolish.
. . . . brace yourself . . . heh heh . . .
WHAT A FANTASTICALLY WONDERFUL POST.
WHAT A BEAUTIFULLY TOTALLY ACCURATE SET OF STATEMENTS.
Loved reading them.
Thanks.
>>I think that in his effort to make the Gospel sound palaltable to many, he did water it down.<<
I agree, but only to the point that I believe taht ALL sincere Christians, in their search for the continuing perfecting of themselves and their attempt to "perfectly" worship God end up erring in one of two directions: They either water it down or they become too legalistic. Neither is good, but I still read the works of men other than myself to broaden my perspective of Christ and how I should live my life according to His will. If I refuse to read (or listen to) the words of other believers because I feel they do not have the "perfect" word of God, I would stop going to church, and be against the "gathering together of yourselves."
Like I do with all the teachings of all mere men, I use my brain and prayer (not necessarily in that order) to eat the wheat and discard the chaff.
THANKFULLY, You are wrong enough to be mostly off the wall about Rick Warren.
When did you become a card carrying NAYSAYER?
Excellent observation(s).
I think you are absolutely correct about the constant tension between
watering Biblical truth down vs prissy satan driven legalism, phariseeism and the like.
Actually, I think God was a lot more hostile about the latter.
And, as my posts demonstrated, Rick Warren doesn't really water the Gospel down AT ALL.
It boggles my mind that any logical, honest person would assert otherwise.
There's nothing watered down about:
All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God Rom 3:23 as well as a host of other such Scriptures and supporting comments of Rick's.
C. S. Lewis made some comment in one of his books that he suspected that the prostitute is closer to heaven than the holier than thou prim and propper relilgious busibody.
I've read repeated confirmations of that from personal experiences of a host of diverse people from all walks of life and across the globe.
Say what you will about Roland Buck and his ANGELS ON ASSIGNMENT, it still strengthened my walk with Jesus.
And he noted that when he visited the Throne Room in Heaven where God Almighty was--and I guess--where only those of sufficient--something--holiness, I guess--are evidently allowed--at least at that moment--Roland saw many prostitutes in the Throne Room but not a single religious leader and certainly not a single pharisee.
Rings true to my observations about RELIGIOUS life and those addicted to the form instead of in love with The Substance.
Thanks.
Yep, the means becomes the end. And we are ALL guilty of doing it from time to time.
I'd definitely have to see an exact quote and source to believe that..
Since I didn't make that remark, I feel no need to answer for it. I do agree with it, however.
I'm grieved that such a Biblical work so powerfully used of Holy Spirit gets so blackwashed by RELIGIOUS folks considering themselves better than someone so key to winning tens of thousands of souls to Christ and discipling them to maturity.
You are passing off your personal opinion as though it were the Word of God itself. I don't think I'm better than anyone else. I truly don't. You don't know me, and therefore have no right to lump me in with those you feel so duty-bound to criticize and debunk. The problem is, you seem to feel that it is your God-given duty to heap criticism and invective upon anyone who doesn't agree with you. Please show me chapter and verse where this is a Christian response.
I'm grieved at your audacity.
It's audacious to disagree?
I'm grieved at your arrogance.
It's arrogant to disagree?
I'm grieved at your lack of Biblical soundness in your whining.
I did not at anytime whine, so such a charge comes under the heading of bearing false witness. Your grieving should be for your own sin.
I think you owe Rick Warren a written confession and apology.
For what? Disagreeing with his methodology? Don't you really mean that you think I owe YOU a written apology, for daring to disagree with a man who is obviously your hero?
God will extract it from you in His time. Prepare to be humbled before Him about this issue.
LOL! So now you speak for God, too? You're going to call judgment down on me because I disagree with Rick Warren? Rather harsh, don't you think?
Your entire argument is based on a view of scripture and interpretation that is not considered orthodox Protestant theology. Your argument would be true ONLY if it is biblical that men can and do seek out God on their own, by their own initiative, and with no prior prompting by the Holy Spirit. You also obviously believe that Jesus provided potential salvation for the entire human race, contingent only upon their decision to believe it and receive it in order to make it so. There are many who find real, biblical problems with such theology. It is a denial of the depravity of mankind, of the depths to which sin has stained and corrupted them. It is a denial of the biblical fact that all unregenerate men hate God, and the equally biblical fact that only the regenerate love Him. Warren waters it down to make it palatable, and in so doing, emasculates the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
You really do need to calm down. You're shouting at us in multicolored giant fonts. Get a grip, friend!
I'll try to find it. Remember though, he didn't state it as fact. He stated it as a "I could imagine" mainly to make a point, which would go along with his attitude I pick up in the rest of his books.
I didn't think I would be able to find it so fast, but I found it on this site: http://www.cslewisclassics.com/rgg.html
Here is how they quote it from MERE CHRISTIANITY:
Lewis ends the chapter "Sexual Morality" with a remarkable assertion: "…a cold self-righteous prig who goes regularly to church may be far nearer to hell than a prostitute" (p. 95). Why does Lewis consider spiritual sins to be worse than sins of the flesh? What is Lewis's view of the proper role of sexuality, pleasure, and chastity for Christians?
I didn't say anything about that.
I think you are off the wall.
You are passing off your personal opinion as though it were the Word of God itself
Not at all. Some things I know more than others. Some things are more obvious than others. I think you've taken a stance that's reasonably easy to asses vis a vis Rick Warren. And, I believe I do know something about God's heart and perspective regarding Rick Warren.
I'm not at all interested in bothering people merely because they disagree with me. I am fairly passionate about some issues. Naysaying wonderful Christian Brothers and ministries like Rick Warren's is a very serious issue, to me. All the more so when it's done by knee-jerk naysayers who remind me most of the religious leaders of Jesus' dusty pathed days.
I proved how Rick Warren was writing the opposite of fluff and was quite Biblical.
The lies and wholesale dishonorable distortions to the contrary should be repented of and apologies sent to him. I'm quite confident about God's heart and perspective on that matter.
I characterized your wholesale distortions about Rick Warren as whining. My perspective. Others may disagree. Sounded, felt like, read like whining, to me. Was certainly worse than the mere disagreement you characterized it as.
No. I don't care that much about apology to me. I'm inconsequential in this matter in the eternal scheme of things.
I suppose God will judge you if you refuse to accept His truth in the matter when He makes it abundantly clear to you. But I was mostly articulating that He will make it pointedly clear to you at some time of His choosing how wrong you are about Rick Warren. And, when he does, you will likely AT LEAST BE GREATLY SORROWFUL to have been so blind and so wrong.
Methodology is one thing. Folks have accused Rick of being full of fluff and antiBiblical etc. Such is at best wholesale wrong. But it comes across to me as an arrogant, sanctimonious, pharisaical lie from the pit. I would think serious believers would be more cautious about taking up such a chorus so compulsively and so lock-step. All the more so since it's so easily proven to be wholesale inaccurate, wrong, a lie.
The Scriptures I cited and the statements with them that Rick made prove that he IN NO WAY emasculates The Gospel or any part of Scripture. Allegations otherwise are travesties and insults to what Holy Spirit is doing through Rick. They also increasingly come across to me as willful, brazen falsehoods.
Quite so, sadly--we all fall prey to making the means a lofty end far too often--and all the more so in RELIGIOUS groups.
Flowing in His Spirit vs striving in the flesh is certainly still a growing area for me. Prayers for that would be welcome!
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