Posted on 06/10/2004 12:25:02 PM PDT by AskStPhilomena
Because of the heresy of Martin Luther, the idea of Purgatory has long been considered a myth of the Catholic Church - a medieval myth. You'll note anyone seeking to advance the modernist, Masonic, One World New Order agenda will most always label traditional practices as "medieval." No, the whole 'medieval' smear is exactly what modernists are so adept at: inaccuracies and lies…
Why is it that something so fundamental to Church dogma has been abandoned? Just as there are Three Persons in One God, the Triune Divinity, so also there are three components in One Communion of Saints. Those are, of course, the Church Triumphant - the saints in Heaven; the Church Militant - all those baptized faithful believers on earth, and the Church Suffering - all those who are waiting to be purified before entering the Heavenly realm.
Yes, Virginia, Purgatory does exist. And the sooner all realize that and begin to fulfill the duty that we as members of the Church Militant have - praying for the poor souls - the sooner they'll be freed and can then intercede for us. Heavens knows all of us here on earth need help!
So while we wile away our time trying to find ways to save time, why don't we make the resolution to rededicate our efforts to helping those who, in the long run, will help us the most, those who have just entered Heaven. They're so grateful that they will go to great lengths to show their gratitude by interceding before the Beatific Vision. Fresh prayers from new holy recruits. A refreshing idea.
I have news for all, and yes, I'm even speaking to "the choir" here - none of us does as much as we should for the Poor Souls.
While we focus so much attention on the events of the day both in the world with war and terrorism, natural and man-made disasters, greed, graft, sodomy run amok, adultery and pornography seeping into every fabric of life, the rampant materialism, what we really need to do is find time to meditate on the question - What is really important? Yes, our family's welfare is important, but as I have gone to the mat several times with my sons when they have asked for things that are not good for them, the most important role I have in life other than the welfare of my own soul and my wife's soul is their spiritual welfare. What it basically comes down to is this: Nothing else matters!
Jesus said that so very clearly in Matthew 16: 26,
"For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father, with His angels: and then will He render to every man according to His works."
As an aside, that last doctrine by Our Lord totally anathematizes the protestant belief of sola Scriptura or sola Fidei [only the Scriptures or only the Faith saves]. Your works count in your salvation, and those works include helping the suffering souls in Purgatory.
(Excerpt) Read more at traditioninaction.org ...
You are all missing my point- Catholics could get rid of purgatory as an issue if they just did a worldwide "Prayer of St. Gertrude the Great" campaign. The Pope could proclaim a particular Sunday as "purgatory emptying day", direct all Catholics to say the prayer 10 times, and the place should be empty. Then, every Sunday, every Catholic could say the prayer once at Mass as sort of a "purgatory maintainence" program. Why hasn't this been done?? Don't you all care about the suffering souls??
Your missing the point, purgatory is not something to be gotten rid of any more than heaven is. It serves a purpose of His design: with out the gift of a place of purification, very few of us could gain admittance in to His kingdom. As far as prayer for the souls in purgatory I pray for them daily, so do many other Catholics. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that prayer is not a central aspect of everyones life, either for the souls of those in purgatory or for those still here on earth. And for many people, prayer is a theological vending machine focused on selfish petitions; "Lord give me..., Lord help me..."
If purgatory is necessary and serves a purpose, then WHY ARE YOU PRAYING TO RELEASE SOULS FROM IT?? From the original article: "Yes, Virginia, Purgatory does exist. And the sooner all realize that and begin to fulfill the duty that we as members of the Church Militant have - praying for the poor souls - the sooner they'll be freed and can then intercede for us. Heavens knows all of us here on earth need help!"
Why would you want to free souls sooner than they would otherwise be freed? Aren't you then denying them necessary cleansing? Why would anyone want to pay indulgences (yes, indulgences are still officially accepted by the RCC) to decrease their time or someone else's time in purgatory? Again, aren't you losing the "benifit" of purgatory?
Why would anyone want to pay indulgences (yes, indulgences are still officially accepted by the RCC) to decrease their time or someone else's time in purgatory? Define "pay".
"Why would you not want to help someone enter heaven sooner rather than later? The benefit of purgatory is to purify the soul an if I can help that along then why wouldn't I?"
Which brings me back to my original question- why hasn't the Pope proclaimed a "clean out purgatory" campaign? With a tool as powerful as the Prayer of St. Gertrude the Great in your arsenal, I've shown it would be easy!
Look, you can't have it both ways. Either it is good to pray to get souls out of purgatory, or it isn't. If it is good, then launch the St. Gertrude missiles and get it over with!
The statement that that prayer will release "1000" souls from Purgatory is simply not true. There is no basis for such a claim, which was probably corrupted from an indulgence of 1000 days given for the prayer (1000 days off canonical penance).
Not to worry! I, and many Catholics offer Mass intentions for the souls in Purgatory everyday. And the Church does the same in the Mass itself.
"Remember our brthers and sisters who have gone to their rest in the hopeof rising again; bring them and all the departed into the light of Your presence. Have mercy on us all"
In my intentions (my personal prayer to God) I ask God to remember also those forgotten souls, partcularly protestants, who have no one to pray for them.
Excellent observation! And I believe you are right. Not one soul will leave Purgatory, nor would they even dream of wanting to, until they are "pure" enough to stand unashamed before God. There is a parable to that effect "until the last farthing is paid."
However, there is a notion that souls, even though they are purifed, will languish in Purgatory until they are brought to God's attention through prayer.
"However, there is a notion that souls, even though they are purifed, will languish in Purgatory until they are brought to God's attention through prayer."
First, isn't God omniscient? Does He need anyone to "bring something to his attention"?
Second, say someone is in purgatory, and they have been fully "purified" through suffering. If no one is praying for them, will they continue to languish there? Will God allow them to continue to suffer, although completely purified? Doesn't sound like the righteous God I know. Then again, the God I know did all the suffering necessary, and now and forever considers me and all other true believers justified, purified, clean, and righteous.
.That was an honest thought to consider.
If Christ was the propitiation for your sin, If he paid the price for your sin, why must you then pay it. It makes mercy unnecessary
All you did is chose not to answer and cover your tracks with an insult.
Isn't that convienient, all you have to do is believe. What about the demons? They also believe in Jesus. Rmember what He did to them? The pigs, the cliff? How could he be so cruel to those who believe in him?
The Apostle Paul also appears to be praying for a dead person, Onesiphorous, in 2 Timothy 1:16-18
"For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Crist, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body." 2cor 5:10
I hope you haven't forgotten these passages, as I know they are uncomfortable to preach on in a protestant congregation.
I don't know if arguss was being intentionally misleading, or he doesn't completely understand, or if I'm misunderstanding him, but that line about prayer calling God's attention to the soul in purgatory that has already been purged of his sin was incorrect.
You are not praying that they are somehow taken out of purgatory early like cookies being removed from the oven too soon, either. The soul will enter heaven when it is purged of the temporal punishment due to sin, and not before.
Our prayers for the souls in purgatory are "paying their debt", so to speak, and we join St. Paul- "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you and fill up those things that are wanting in the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the Church." (Colossians 1:24).
Basically, we pray that God pours out the grace upon that soul which He earned on Calvary, but which was lacking in that individual due to his own sin, so that he may be brought to the state of perfection required to enter heaven.
After reading your further comments I assume you weren't being intentionally misleading, so pardon that comment that I made above. I thought you might have been a protestant giving a false "teaching" of the Catholic Church.
Sorry.
I would imagine it's not an insult given that you believe the Holy Ghost inspires you to discover the Doctrine of Christ through Scripture, even as the fissiparousness of prostestantism would make that theory seem foolish. If the Holy Ghost does not make you infallible in your interpretation of Scripture, then you are "setting yourself up as the final authority in religion."
Christ redeemed us; by His Blood we are saved. But the justice of God does not allow the temporal punishment of our trespasses to go unremitted nor does it allow anything defiled to enter into Heaven. The distinction between temporal punishment and eternal punishment is important - we know that through Christ we can find remission of eternal punishment, but the temporal punishment for our sins remains, as seen in the effects of sickness and death. We can be forgiven for our trespasses and avoid eternal punishment, but still have a debt to pay with temporal punishment - as seen with Psalm 99: "O Lord, our God, you answered them; you were a forgiving God, though you punished their offenses" (8). Purgatory is a means of remitting this debt to God, but the same effect can be achieved by doing penance and corporal or spiritual works of mercy here on earth.
***We can be forgiven for our trespasses and avoid eternal punishment, but still have a debt to pay with temporal punishment - as seen with Psalm 99: "O Lord, our God, you answered them; you were a forgiving God, though you punished their offenses"***
There you go again Fifth, a Catholic offering his own interpretation of Scripture. You should ONLY quote verbatim the Magisterium. Citing a verse with your own comments is so..... Protestant!
Me, protestant? O, the horror! I didn't say that commentating on an obvious passage of Scripture is an exercise in poor judgment, but when you approach the stumbling block verses and start interpreting the words of Christ ("Oh, well, He meant He was the rock," "Oh, well, he meant 'Eat my flesh' figuratively," etc), then we have a problem.
Was the "punishment " in that scripture temporal or after death?? Sin always has earthly consequences. We reap what we sow.As David , a man after Gods own heat , lost a son, and had a very dysfunctional family that caused pain in his life
The "forgiveness" of Christ you describe is not "forgiveness" , the "forgiveness" you describe is not mercy
He forgives you but then demands that you pay for your own sin too...that is unless someone prays to some saint to free you
The Blood of Christ does not free you from eternal punishment , but the intervention of some saint does.
This is not biblical , it was not taught by Jesus or buy the apostles.
This is a doctrine of men that what to save themselves , men that refuse mercy in exchange for a salvation by works. Suffer a little and then you have earned heaven .
I do not much care if you want to believe it. But the man that hung on the cross to be the propitiation for the sins of men must be sorry He died in vain .
***I didn't say that commentating on an obvious passage of Scripture is an exercise in poor judgment***
"Obvious passage" you say? ... Are you the Magisterium? It is not your place, as a loyal Catholic, to interpret Scripture or to conclude that a passage is obvious is it?...
UNLESS you are modifying the Catholic axiom that the Church interprets Scripture to the position that the Church interprets difficult passages of Scripture and it is OK for a non-ordained catholic to judge a passage to be obvious.
My interpretation is not the issue here. Hey, I'm a Protestant. We believe that a believer priest has the authority and responsibility to interpret Scripture.
I am flabbergasted that a loyal Roman Catholic would dare say what a passage of Scripture means unless he/she is verbatim quoting the Magisterium. Even paraphrasing their interpretation is dangerous.
When RCs challenge Proddys with the acronym "YOPIOS" (Your Own Pious Interpretation of Scripture) and then tell us what a passage means in their own words... the saying about Rubber and Glue comes to mind.
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