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Sacred Scripture and Outside the Church There is NO Salvation
Catholic Family News ^ | June 2004 | Jacob Michael

Posted on 05/27/2004 7:10:58 AM PDT by AskStPhilomena

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus: outside the Church, there is no salvation. This “hard saying” has been consistently taught as a dogma of the Faith from the very inception of the Church — affirmed by the Gospels and epistles, insisted on by the early Church Fathers, and later solemnly defined in holy councils and papal statements.

Naturally, it is the primary dogma being attacked today, because the modern Creed of the unwashed masses (and that includes liberal Protestants and Catholics) has only one article of faith: I believe in tolerance and respect for every religion.

In an age where truth is said to be relative, where “what’s right for you is right for you, what’s right for me is right for me,” and where intolerance is the only mortal sin, the dogma that says “Outside the Church there is no salvation” sticks out like a sore thumb.

“How intolerant! How exclusivist! You mean to tell me that you think your religion has a monopoly on truth? That only Catholics have it all right?”

“No one religion has a monopoly on truth — every religion has some truth, and every religion has some error. We’re only humans, after all, and it’s unrealistic to think that any one group could be entirely free from misconceptions about Who God is and what He expects of us.”

“In the end, God is not going to give us theological entrance exams before we can get into Heaven — we’ll be judged on how we treated the sick, the hungry, the poor, and not on how correct our theology was. It doesn’t matter what you believe, just how you act.”

Do those words sound at all familiar? They certainly sound familiar to me, because those are the very words that came out of my mouth on a fairly regular basis some five-or-so years ago. Those words summarize the overwhelmingly, universally accepted understanding of religion and faith — just do whatever makes you feel good, and don’t judge anyone else.

What saith the Scriptures? Are all religions equal? Does it really matter what you believe? Is there a dichotomy between the Christ you worship and the Church to which you belong? Some say that faith in Christ is all that matters, not what denomination you belong to — as though Christ is over here in this category, and the Church is over there in that category, as sort of an irrelevant aside.

As I have written in past articles, the Gospel is more than just “Christ on the Cross.” The Gospel is the restoration of the kingdom of David — which kingdom is the Catholic Church — and the Cross is the royal enthronement of Our King.

There is no need to restate all of the proofs that I have written about before — I will simply stipulate that the Church (and a proper understanding of the Church) is absolutely central to the Gospel.

What does Scripture teach us about the necessity of belonging to the Church, or about the dogma “outside the Church there is no salvation”?

We may begin with the passage from St. Matthew’s Gospel, which every Catholic should know by heart:

“And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 16:18)

This is a singular point: there are two kingdoms, and only two. One is the kingdom of God (the Church) and the other is the kingdom of Satan. If you do not belong to one, you belong to the other, as Our Lord implied:

“He that is not with Me is against Me; and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth.” (Luke 11:23)

This verse puts the lie to the false sentiment that all denominations (Lutheran, Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopalian, Anglican, Congregational, Free Methodist, etc.) are equally doing the work of Christ and furthering the spread of the kingdom. If they are not part of the one Church that Christ founded (and He did say that He would build His “Church,” singular, not “churches”), then they scatter against Him and do not gather with Him.

This understanding is so critical, yet so misunderstood and ignored by so- called “bible Christians” (and many Catholics) in our day. From the very beginning, Christ founded only one Church, and entrusted to it, in the words of St. Paul:

“... one faith, one baptism.” (Eph. 4:5)

The utter uniqueness of this Church should be beyond debate. We have thus far seen nothing but singularity: one Church, one faith, one baptism. There is no room here for multiple “churches” teaching multiple disparate doctrines.

So important is holding fast to this “one faith,” that Our Lord, St. Paul, and St. John all admonish us to steer clear of those who would tamper with the faith, and to consider them, not as Christian equals, but as pagans:

“And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.” (Matt. 18:17)

“A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, avoid.” (Titus 3:10)

“If any man come to you and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him: God speed you.” (2 John 10)

“But though we, or an Angel from Heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema.” (Gal. 1:8)

Is this exclusivist and intolerant? Absolutely — but why would you expect anything different? Is this not the very nature of God, and are not these sentiments — written by the Apostles — the very same as those of the God Who said:

“I the Lord, this is My name: I will not give My glory to another ...” (Is. 42:8)

“For I am the Lord thy God, a jealous God ...” (Dt. 5:9)

“The Lord His name is jealous, He is a jealous God.” (Ex. 34:14)

From the absolute uniqueness and singularity of God, there springs forth an absolutely exclusive truth, revealed unto men by an absolutely unique and singular Divine Man, and entrusted exclusively to His singular and unique Church. Or, to trace it backwards, there is only one faith, found in one Church, with one baptism, entrusted to the Church by Her one Lord, the one and only-begotten Son of the One True God. To introduce diversity at any point in this catena is to destroy the whole.

And what of the “one baptism”? This, too, is a testament to the necessity of belonging to the one true Church. How are we incorporated into this Church?

“For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body ...” (1 Cor. 12:13)

It is through the sacrament of that “one baptism” that we are made members of the One Church. And of this baptism, it is said:

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved ...” (Mark 16:16)

“Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” (John 3:5)

To say that one must be baptized for salvation is to say that one must be inside the Church to be saved, for baptism is what incorporates us into the Church. If baptism is necessary for salvation, and the Church is necessary for baptism, then the Church is necessary for salvation, and being “outside the Church” is to endanger one’s eternal soul.

We need look no further than the prophecy of Daniel to find some identifying marks of this one Church:

“... the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth ... the God of Heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never by destroyed, and His kingdom shall not be delivered up to another people: and it shall break in pieces, and shall consume all these kingdoms: and itself shall stand for ever.” (Dan. 2:35, 44)

In these two verses, the prophet Daniel reveals to us all at once the visibility, universality, and immutability of the true Church. Visibility, because this kingdom fills “the whole earth” and is as “a great mountain” — who has ever heard of a mountain that was so great as to fill the entire earth and yet remain invisible? Universality, because this kingdom fills “the whole earth,” and conquers over “all these kingdoms” of the earth. Immutability, because this kingdom “shall stand forever.”

What more proof do we need that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Christ? Has there ever been another Church that has filled the whole earth, that has been visible for all to see, that had its inception during the days of the Roman Empire (Daniel says this kingdom will be established “in the days of those kingdoms,” the last of which was the Roman Empire in the 1st Century), and that has remained upon the earth ever since that time?

Does anyone require still further proof that the Church which was founded in the Apostolic times was, in fact, the Catholic Church?

Then hear Pope St. Clement of Rome (d. A.D. 98/101) who says that in this Church the Apostles “knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the bishop,” and so they “appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.” (Letter to the Corinthians, XLIV)

Hear the account of the Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (d. A.D. 155), after which the Christians “took up his bones, as being more precious than the most exquisite jewels … and deposited them in a fitting place, whither, being gathered together … the Lord shall grant us to celebrate the anniversary of his martyrdom.” (The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp, XVIII)

Hear St. Ignatius of Antioch (d. A.D. 107), who calls the Holy Eucharist the “medicine of immortality, and the antidote which prevents us from dying, but a cleansing remedy driving away evil, [which causes] that we should live in God through Jesus Christ.” (Epistle to the Ephesians, XX)

Hear the same St. Ignatius tell us, “As therefore the Lord does nothing without the Father ... so do ye, neither presbyter, nor deacon, nor layman, do anything without the bishop,” and hear him exhort us, “Do ye all, as one man, run together into the temple of God, as unto one altar, to one Jesus Christ, the High Priest of the unbegotten God.” (Epistle to the Magnesians, VII)

Hear St. Justin Martyr explain the early rites of Baptism, in which sinners “are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated ... in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed.” (First Apology, LXI)

Hear the same St. Justin Martyr (d. A.D. 130) explain the early Eucharistic Sacrifice, “of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins.” He tells us that “not as common bread and common drink do we receive these, but ... we [have] been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word … is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.” (First Apology, LXVI)

Hear St. Irenaeus of Lyons (d. A.D. 202), who says that heretics “object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth,” and that “these men do now consent neither to Scripture nor to tradition.” (Against Heresies, Book III, II, 2)

Finally, hear this same St. Irenaeus tell us that we may “put to confusion all those who ... assemble in unauthorized meetings, by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul,” and that “it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority.” (Against Heresies, Book III, III, 2)

All of these writings date back as early as the late 1st Century, and none of them are dated later than the late 2nd Century. Who can observe these facts and deny that the Apostolic Church was anything but Catholic, both in belief and in practice? I submit to you that only the most bereft of good will and intellectual honesty can read these writings and still not conclude that the Holy Catholic Church is the one true Church.

This is the “faith once delivered to the saints” that St. Jude referred to, the detractors of which “have perished in the contradiction of Core.” (Jude 3, 11) You may remember that Core raised up a rebellion against God’s appointed vicar (Moses), reasoning that “all the multitude consisteth of holy ones, and the Lord is among them: Why lift you up yourselves above the people of the Lord?” (Num. 16:3) For this rebellion against the divinely constituted authority, the earth opened up and swallowed Core and his band, who all “went down alive into hell, the ground closing upon them.” (vs. 31-33)

Is there salvation outside the Church? Ask Core and his followers, or ask St. Jude, who compared the detractors of the Holy Faith to Core, and promised them a similar fate.

No, it is a dogma of the faith, well attested by Scripture, that there is only one Church, which is entered into by one baptism, and which professes only one faith. Those who reject this Church necessarily reject the “one faith,” and are declared by St. Paul to be “heretics” who are “anathema”.

Yes, it is an intolerant and exclusive position, but it is divinely revealed truth, which is ours to adhere to and not to alter. The Church is exclusive, and salvation is difficult to obtain, as Our Lord taught:

“And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But He said to them: Strive to enter by the narrow gate: for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter and shall not be able.” (Luke 13:23-24)

We may conclude with the words of The Athanasian Creed written in the 4th Century, words that express the unchanging truth regarding the Catholic Church:

“Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith; Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.”


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; ecclesiam; ecumenism; extra; nullam; salus; truth
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To: conservonator; All

The church existed from Adam to Godly Seth to Enoch to Noah to Abraham to Isaac and Jacob. The church was in existence when Melchizidec visited Abraham. The church was in existence with Moses and the prophets. David bespoke of the church when he asserted in the Psalms..."the Lord said to MY LORD, sit thou at my right hand!" The church was existence before time and space...before Abraham was, Christ IS. The church is Jesus Christ, our vine and we have become his branches. The church is the 6 years that went and accepted Jesus as her Saviour at the southern Baptist church last Sunday. The church is the rollicking Catholics of West Africa singing and dancing in the aisles before their Lord. The church is three Marines in Fallujah praying to Jesus over their injured comrade....

It is blasphemy to say that one bureaucracy on the Tiber is God's chosen church, a bureaucracy itself so in need of inner cleansing and moral/spiritual regeneration.

Those who have called upon the name of the Lord and have truly repented of their sins in spirit and in truth are his church. We all know what those sins are thru his word and in convictions of our conscience by the Holy Spirit, so none of us has any excuse.

I speak of not just Catholics but any line of reasoning that has one tradition or denomination claiming it is the true church. Jesus Christ is our true author and finisher of our faith and no Catholic priest will be there for each of us as we face Christ before his judgment seat. We each will face him individually...the only real question we will be asking our-selves is..will he say he knows me or knows me not? Will our names be found in the Lamb's book of Life? Will he tell me to depart from him into the place built for Satan and his minions?

The wolves have attacked the flocks in the Catholic and Higher Protestant churches. This loathsome Catholic triumphalism and the thoughtless counter Catholic Bashing from Protestants must cease and we must attack Godlessness together!(we must hang together for otherwise we shall certainly hang together---Ben Franklin)
God will work out the denominational differences in the day of resurrection....probably by pointing out where both Catholics and Protestants have gotten it wrong over the millenia!


401 posted on 05/29/2004 9:48:24 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (The Democrats must be defeated in 2004)
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To: Fifthmark

Invincible ignorance does not impart grace. But it does make guilt impossible.


402 posted on 05/29/2004 10:21:26 AM PDT by Arthur McGowan
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To: mdmathis6
This loathsome Catholic triumphalism and the thoughtless counter Catholic Bashing from Protestants must cease and we must attack Godlessness together!

The Master wishes us to be a little more discerning than that.

"Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness?" (2 Cor. vi.14)

Would you care to comment on any of the Scriptural defenses for Extra ecclesiam nulla salus presented in the article?

403 posted on 05/29/2004 7:50:31 PM PDT by Fifthmark
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To: mdmathis6
I agree wholeheartedly with your post. My hat is off to you. I wish others would join us in thinking this,but I kind of doubt many will. But that is their privilege.
404 posted on 05/29/2004 9:51:58 PM PDT by ladyinred (The leftist media is the enemy within.)
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To: Titanites
So you are in union with the Mormons, Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans?

While I see your point, I think God is the one true judge of who is His own, not me. But I do believe and I daresay hope that His Own exist within all of the above.

405 posted on 05/29/2004 9:55:36 PM PDT by ladyinred (The leftist media is the enemy within.)
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To: mdmathis6

Amen. Amen. Amen.


406 posted on 05/29/2004 10:25:18 PM PDT by bonfire
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To: Fifthmark

The Scriptural references cited are lifted from the surrounding contexts that don't support the doctrines that have been formed around them.

I could argue from them that the Eastern Orthodox Church is the true church...after all it was part of the whole 'till it split from Rome...maybe they are following the truth as Peter and the Apostles would have had the whole church follow until corruption began to invade the Western Church. I know they don't necessarily believe in the apostolic succession, but are you prepared to assert that there are no Orthodox adherents who worship Christ as Peter did in spirit and in truth? Are you prepared to say that the soldiers pictured praying over their injured comrade weren't exercising faith as Peter would have admonished them...despite the fact that they might not have been Catholic? Or the 6 year old girl at the southern Baptist church asking to be "saved"?

Christ said an interesting thing about the "sons of Abraham"; that is his"father knows how to make sons of Abraham from the very stones". The point is God's true children acknowledge Jesus Christ as saviour and Lord and worship him in spirit and in truth.

Christ can make us all "sons of Abraham by the spirit of Adoption" as Paul stated, the spilling of his very blood has guaranteed that.

I submit to you that any church or denomination that eschews evil and worships Christ in spirit and in Truth and thrusts out from them those who sexually pervert the truth of God is not only a true branch of Christ's vine but....A TRUE CHURCH OF PETER worthy of the name...IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH!



407 posted on 05/30/2004 7:26:34 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (The Democrats must be defeated in 2004)
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To: mdmathis6
...those who sexually pervert the truth...

What on earth are you talking about?

The point is God's true children acknowledge Jesus Christ as saviour and Lord and worship him in spirit and in truth.

Yes, the truth of the Doctrine of Christ, taught by the Apostles, which if you do not assent to, you are not a Christian. See the Second Epistle of St. John. Only the Catholic Church teaches this Doctrine.

408 posted on 05/31/2004 6:46:45 AM PDT by Fifthmark
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To: armydoc
So the elements are literally flesh and blood?

Yes, the Eucharist is the body, blood, soul and Divinity of Christ.

I thought they were not literally flesh and blood (the "substance" thing)?

It is literally what I described above, the physical accidents appear to us as bread and wine.

Or perhaps this is a metaphor for accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior in a deeply personal, genuine way. How about an adult who professes faith, joins the RCC, and dies before taking first communion? Out of luck, I guess?

He will save who He will save.

409 posted on 06/01/2004 7:44:18 AM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: ladyinred
Depends on what you are doing. Are you celebrating a symbolic meal of bread and wine only or are you taking part of the bread bread of life which is His body, blood soul and Divinity in the Eucharistic celebration.
410 posted on 06/01/2004 7:46:41 AM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: mdmathis6
It is blasphemy to say that one bureaucracy on the Tiber is God's chosen church, a bureaucracy itself so in need of inner cleansing and moral/spiritual regeneration.

The Church is not the bureaucracy, it is the Divinely instituted organization that serves His will. The fallible human bureaucracy serves as means carrying out His will. Try not to confuse the two: one is perfect and the pillar and foundation of truth, the other serves, sometimes well and sometimes not so well, the truth. It is that core of truth that is the Church and it is only found in it's fullness in the Catholic Church.

You believe He left a confused rabble of divergent interpretation. I do not.

I'm always amazed at the willing ness of other Christians to point out the sometimes wicked actions of some who serve the Church and attempt to use those actions as evidence of the illegitimacy of the Church. If the acts of a rebellious few can destroy the legitimacy of the Church, than Christianity as a whole has been "proved" illegitimate by the acts of individual "Christan's" throughout history. The last centuries alone featured "Christian" institutions like Apartheid. Does this invalidate the whole of Christianity? No, it simply invalidates the defective nature of individual interpretation of scripture, aka YOPIOS.

411 posted on 06/01/2004 8:09:54 AM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: conservonator

One can read the Bible and know what the Church is and should be about. The Church starts first with the Head Vine which is Jesus Christ and its members or the branches are those who have accepted his gift of salvation. That is the very basic truth that all Godly churhes, Catholic and Protestant, (that is those who have not bowed to the Anti-christian Apostacy that is gathering strength in our world) that empowers the witness of these churches.

To apostate Protestants, I would say that that church has a rather narrow door, which is to say Jesus Christ who urges all men to repent and accept his blood sacrifice. The old laws still apply(despite our inability to live by them); we are expected to show spiritual fruit by showing that we live by God's moral laws thru the out-working of the Holy Spirit in our lives(hearts of flesh vs tablets of stone). It is just that when we fail and repent there is the blood of Jesus and his grace and forgiveness. Works themselves don't save us, but if we live as Soddomites, don't think that God will with-hold judgment! Scripture says judgment first begins in the House of God! We are still to hold our flesh in contempt, but we are free of condemnation because we are in Christ Jesus

To otherwise Godly and forthright Catholics I would say that that Christ's(and Peter's) Church is a much more broadly Universal, transtemporal reality cannot be contained by bureaucratic priests, Bishops, Cardinals, and Popes, many of which have also become like the Soddomites of old. Any church worthy of Peter would behave as Peter would behave and would admonish as Peter would admonish. I dare say that there are true churches of Peter that call themselves protestant as they are spiritually in tune with that same reality that Peter was in tune with, namely Christ Jesus!

Any church, Catholic or Protestant that holds to Biblical and Godly morality, whose people worship God in spirit and in truth, are worthy to be called churches of Christ Jesus(and of Peter and the prophets and apostles as they would approve of such churches)!


412 posted on 06/01/2004 11:07:18 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (The Democrats must be defeated in 2004)
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To: conservonator

One can read the Bible and know what the Church is and should be about. The Church starts first with the Head Vine which is Jesus Christ and its members or the branches are those who have accepted his gift of salvation. That is the very basic truth that all Godly churhes, Catholic and Protestant, (that is those who have not bowed to the Anti-christian Apostacy that is gathering strength in our world) that empowers the witness of these churches.

To apostate Protestants, I would say that that church has a rather narrow door, which is to say Jesus Christ who urges all men to repent and accept his blood sacrifice. The old laws still apply(despite our inability to live by them); we are expected to show spiritual fruit by showing that we live by God's moral laws thru the out-working of the Holy Spirit in our lives(hearts of flesh vs tablets of stone). It is just that when we fail and repent there is the blood of Jesus and his grace and forgiveness. Works themselves don't save us, but if we live as Soddomites, don't think that God will with-hold judgment! Scripture says judgment first begins in the House of God! We are still to hold our flesh in contempt, but we are free of condemnation because we are in Christ Jesus

To otherwise Godly and forthright Catholics I would say that that Christ's(and Peter's) Church is a much more broadly Universal, transtemporal reality cannot be contained by bureaucratic priests, Bishops, Cardinals, and Popes, many of which have also become like the Soddomites of old. Any church worthy of Peter would behave as Peter would behave and would admonish as Peter would admonish. I dare say that there are true churches of Peter that call themselves protestant as they are spiritually in tune with that same reality that Peter was in tune with, namely Christ Jesus!

Any church, Catholic or Protestant that holds to Biblical and Godly morality, whose people worship God in spirit and in truth, are worthy to be called churches of Christ Jesus(and of Peter and the prophets and apostles as they would approve of such churches)!


413 posted on 06/01/2004 11:11:01 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (The Democrats must be defeated in 2004)
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To: Fifthmark

"What on earth are you talking about?"

You don't see what is happening in the Catholic and Protestant churches and you ask me what I am talking about?

Don't live in a spiritual shoe-box man...the Christ's church(in the traditions of Peter, Paul, the apostles and prophets, empowered by the Holy Spirit, fed by his blood) is bigger than the Vatican!


414 posted on 06/01/2004 11:18:19 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (The Democrats must be defeated in 2004)
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To: mdmathis6
The line "sexually pervert the truth" was a little obscure. If you're referring to the recent Church abuse scandal, know it was created by sodomites who should have never become priests ("Eighty-one percent of sex crimes committed against children by Roman Catholic priests during the past 52 years were homosexual men preying on boys" - John Jay Study, commissioned by the USCCB).

Christ's church...is bigger than the Vatican!

Yes, it is: It is the visible religious society of all those who profess the faith of the Apostles and are in communion with the Pope. It is known by its four marks: One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. It is the only Ark of Salvation, outside of which no one will be saved.

415 posted on 06/01/2004 1:03:11 PM PDT by Fifthmark
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To: mdmathis6
I know they don't necessarily believe in the apostolic succession...

Actually, we do.

416 posted on 06/01/2004 1:20:46 PM PDT by monkfan (Mercy triumphs over judgement)
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To: monkfan

Well there you go then....which of you..Orthodox or Catholic can claim Peter's priestly vision and who are we darkly Protestant Christian wannabe's supposed to believe?


417 posted on 06/01/2004 5:30:21 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (The Democrats must be defeated in 2004)
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To: mdmathis6
Well there you go then....which of you..Orthodox or Catholic can claim Peter's priestly vision and who are we darkly Protestant Christian wannabe's supposed to believe?

Brother, that's been the $64,000 question for the last 1,000 years. You will just have to examine the evidence presented by both sides and work from there. I suspect most Protestants are comfortable where they are and won't bother with it. I was not one of those. I ended up converting to Orthodoxy.

Hopefully, one day, we will get reunified and there won't be a difference anymore. Some say our differences are relatively small, others say we are now worlds apart. In any case, one thing is for sure: these differences are big enough to have kept us divided this long. It will take much time and patience to sort it all out.

418 posted on 06/01/2004 6:11:52 PM PDT by monkfan (Mercy triumphs over judgement)
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To: mdmathis6
Any church, Catholic or Protestant that holds to Biblical and Godly morality, whose people worship God in spirit and in truth, are worthy to be called churches of Christ Jesus(and of Peter and the prophets and apostles as they would approve of such churches)!

One flock, one shepherd. Looking at the present state of Christianity and proclaiming unity flies in the face of reality. One flock, one Shepherd. Nothing you can say can convince me that this, this disunity is what Christ had in mind when He founded a Church.

419 posted on 06/02/2004 7:14:59 AM PDT by conservonator (Blank by popular demand)
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To: monkfan

I say any church, protestant or Catholic, that acts according to the Spirit of Peter and the apostles(one can get the sense of that vision by reading the BOOKS of Peter...1st and 2nd from the Bible) are acting within the true apostolic and spiritual authority. Peter himself in those Epistles asserts that it is "Christ that is the CHIEF cornerstone of the church". Why doesn't he assert that Christ had made him the true Church's one foundation in his epistles...hmmmm?

It is the Spirit and Truth of Worship that denotes true apostolic and spirtual authority, not the traditions of men! True churches of Peter will ACT like true church's of Peter! And that is the dirty little reality that many churches...Catholic and Protestant as well avoid discussion about!

To borrow from a political line...It's the Fruits of the Spirit....would be enlightened ones!(I don't like the term stupid....it doesn't fit here!)


420 posted on 06/03/2004 3:59:25 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (The Democrats must be defeated in 2004)
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