Sacred Scripture and Outside the Church There is NO Salvation

Catholic Family News ^ | June 2004 | Jacob Michael

[conservonator]

He didn't ordain the Roman church to be THE church, that is for sure.

So you go with the loose confederation definition of Church then? Nothing discernible, no guidance in anything other than a myriad of scriptural interpretations? He went to all the trouble to come down form heaven, be born of the virgin, suffer die and rise again just to abandon us? I don't buy it.

[William Terrell]

Excuse me, but is this saying that unless I become a Catholic, worship at its alters, spread its dogma, contribute to its coffers and follow its rules and recognize the Pope as my personal interpreter of Christ, my soul is condemed to Hell?

[conservonator]

So do you share Peters definition? Is it the only definition? Are there different "types" of "church"?

[conservonator]

Did not Paul teach that the church is built upon the foundation of the apostles (including Peter) and the prophets, of which the chief corner-stone is Jesus Christ, Himself ?

Absolutly! So then, what is "Church"?

[conservonator]

BTW, the Council of Trent was, as I recall, the arrogance of the Roman Bishop deciding HE WAS IT. Sheesh.

I see...Best of luck Quix!

[DAVEY CROCKETT]

born of the virgin, suffer die and rise again just to abandon us?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
He didn't abandon us He sent the great Counselor= Holy Spirit.

John 16:[7] Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

[redeemed_by_His_blood]

The Church was growing and thriving before the New Testament was ever codified, and it was the Catholic Church that codified it.

But it wasn't the Roman Catholic church.

No matter how much Rome wants it to be, Rome is not the Church, never has been and never will be.

Granted there are some from the Roman Catholic church who belong to the universal congregation of Christ's Church, who enter the gate through the narrow way of Faith in Christ alone, but the Roman church is not THE Church.

[Fifthmark]

I think the last line of the article should answer your question sufficiently. But don't err in thinking that just because you are Catholic, you are going to Heaven. Far, far from it.

[Fifthmark]

...but the Roman church is not THE Church.

Why not?

[Quester]

So do you share Peters definition ?

Most definitely.

Is it the only definition ?

There are 'other descriptions' of the church, but none which is at variance with that of Peter.

Are there different "types" of "church" ?

No ... there is only one church ... bought with the blood of Jesus Christ, Himself ... wrought by the grace of God ... and batized by His Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

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1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

[SoothingDave]

Excuse me, but is this saying that unless I become a Catholic, worship at its alters, spread its dogma, contribute to its coffers and follow its rules and recognize the Pope as my personal interpreter of Christ, my soul is condemed to Hell?

Yes, it is. But this is an un-nuanced interpretation of the true Catholci position, which allows for mitigating factors which can affect a person's personal culpability for remaining outside of the formal membership of the Church.

If you become aware of the necessity of the Church and refuse to enter, or refuse to honestly investigate her claims, then you will be condemned.

If you labor in ignorance that is invincible, you may be saved. God is not limited to whom He chooses to grace.

And yet He did establish one Church for the purpose of bringing grace into the world.

SD

[redeemed_by_His_blood]

Excuse me, but is this saying that unless I become a Catholic, worship at its alters, spread its dogma, contribute to its coffers and follow its rules and recognize the Pope as my personal interpreter of Christ, my soul is condemed to Hell?

That is exactly what it's saying, unless you are a pagan, then as long as you live a good life and don't commit any mortal sins, you are covered regardless of any relationship to Christ or the Church.

That RC rule only applies to Protestants.

[conservonator]

And now each "believer" is made perfect in his or her faith? What evidence do you have that the Holy Spirit guides all "believers". And if He does, why the plethora of beliefs?The Holy Spirit does guide us, either through His Church or to His Church and always in His own time His manner and for His own purpose.

[Quix]

Actually,

I'd prefer a burning bush daily auto recorded on DVD and copied onto my MINIDISC automatically.

Alas, there's this Scripture and part about

WALKING BY FAITH

And what's seen and touched is not by faith etc.

I'm reminded of the master rider/horse trainer which trains the horse to such a degree that the horse is so sensitive to the rider's even unconscious body movements that he anticipates so well that it seems like the horse reads the rider's mind.

I think God is training us to Hear His voice and obey Him to that degree as a testimony to

HIS GRACE,
GENTLENESS,
POWER,
MASTERFUL WISDOM,
LOVE.

and ours for Him.

[SoothingDave]

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Was this Paul's opinion, or was he expecting that those in Corinth would recognize his authority as a teacher?

Were those in Corinth free as Christians to reject Paul and decide all matters for themselves? Is that the model of ecclesial authority one finds inherent in the New Testament?

SD

[Fifthmark]

You have wasted no effort condemning "traditions of men" - were the Apostles not men? Is St. Paul not telling you explicitly to follow the traditions he and the other Apostles taught "by word or by epistle"?

[William Terrell]

I don't want a demerrer. I want a public proclamation that those souls that don't belong to the Roman Catholic Church, in clear words, like "yes" or "no", are condemed to Hell by that ommission.

[SoothingDave]

unless you are a pagan, then as long as you live a good life and don't commit any mortal sins

Quite a rare bird, that is. I wouldn't be too worried about it.

SD

[conservonator]

So you don't believe that Christ founded a Church in Matthew 16:18? You see "church" as simply a body of believers? Is that correct?

[Fifthmark]

If you labor in ignorance that is invincible, you may be saved.

Emphasis on "may."