Vatican says wine must be put in chalices before consecration

Catholic News Service ^ | May 19, 2004 | Jerry Filteau

[NYer]

For those who are new to the Catholic Ping List, here is a link always worth visiting.

Is Your Mass Valid? Liturgical Abuse

[Pyro7480]

Msgr. James P. Moroney, executive director of the U.S. bishops' Secretariat for Liturgy, said the revised norms are effective immediately, but it is up to each bishop to determine how to implement any liturgical change in his diocese.

Therefore, this is going to continue until the heterodox bishops are gone.

[pseudo-ignatius]

Really, I do wonder if part of the motivation for this particular liturgical change (which I do think is a good one) is to see how long it takes the U.S. bishops to come into comformity. I mean, it should *not* be a contentious point. It's simple and straightforward, and it is clear that it was supposed to take effect immediately.

In St. Louis, I was serving at the cathedral basilica when Archbishop Burke was saying Mass the Sunday after Redemptionis Sacramentum was issued--and he had already implemented all the changes, including this one.

[Coleus]

Yes, thanks.

We started last week.

[Onelifetogive]

Vatican says wine must be put in chalices before consecration

"How do you like the way I have arranged the deck chairs, Captain?"

[Pyro7480]

"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

-Jesus, Matthew 16:18

There have always been sinners in the Church, from Pope to the lowest pauper on the street, but the fact the Church has lasted 2,000 years has testified to this promise made by Our Lord.

[Onelifetogive]

the Church has lasted 2,000 years

Any it will surely outlast Catholicism.....

[Pyro7480]

I hope you are not a betting man...

[Onelifetogive]

I hope you are not a betting man...

That's a quality reply....

It's nice when people can make their point without name calling...

[Pyro7480]

To paraphrase a spiritual hero of mine, "You catch more flies with a spoonful of honey than with a barrelful of vinegar."

[m4629]

but it is up to each bishop to determine how to implement any liturgical change in his diocese.

Yes, the same old loophole mentality shysters at work.

[lrslattery]

I was sent this a little while ago...and I'm surprised that this happened:
"However, just last night, Wednesday the 19th Archbishop Burke celebrated Mass at the CBC new Chapel with about eighty of us Serrans (St. Louis club) and he used one chalice and the remainder of the wine he consecrated while it was in a glass pitcher until it was poured out after the consecration."

I'm not doubting - I heard him on EWTN last Friday, and he was clear about Redemptionis Sacramentum.

[franky]

I noticed the absence of a ceramic chalice the past two weeks including this AM.

All metal (gold) and the wine was poured into another metal chalice before concentration.

[pseudo-ignatius]

That's kind of a surprise to me as well, but if he was celebrating somewhere other than the cathedral (and not at a regular parish), he may have just shown up and let whoever was acting as MC run the show. That, or there's some other detail unknown. If the chapel only had glass chalices for distribution (an abuse, but something outside of his control), he may have preferred to consecrate in the flagon rather than in non-noble chalices.

I don't mean to sound like I'm searching for ways to defend everything His Excellency does, but he has certainly won my respect and admiration, and I'd give him the benefit of the doubt. I was very pleasantly surprised to see that he implemented the changes so quickly at the cathedral. In my home diocese of Galveston-Houston (where I am now), nothing has been said yet by the chancery about the new norms, and none of the parishes I've attended have made the changes (but I would suppose that Annunciation downtown probably has).

[NYer]

I noticed the absence of a ceramic chalice the past two weeks including this AM. All metal (gold) and the wine was poured into another metal chalice before concentration.

Almost makes me want to go back to my former RC parish to see what has become of the glass salad bowl and pitcher service ..... lol! ...... on second thought, I am much too happy - perhaps 'giddy' is the proper word - ensconced in the Maronite liturgy. It has taken them 400 years to arrive at this and I was most fortunate to step into one of their churches, after all of the changes were finalized. It is so beautiful that I often find myself crying during the liturgy.

In today's edition of The Evangelist, there is an article about the changes in the RC liturgy, and how it is being implemented in the Albany Diocese. The article is entitled: Parishes ease into changes in liturgy from Vatican. This is the opening paragraph and I quote:

"In workshops on changes being made by the Vatican to the Mass, Elizabeth Simcoe (she is the director for the liturgy) likes to point out that the first murder was committed over liturgy. Cain killed Abel because Abel's sacrifice was pleasing to God and Cain's was not. So this is explosive territory!?"

Yes indeed, that is how the article begins. It then goes on to describe how each parish is implementing the changes, what the changes are, and how it is being received.

The new plan is to use their Sunday televised mass to 'demonstrate' the proper positions to be taken by the faithful, as if Catholics bowing their heads when Jesus name is mentioned, is such a major furor. I was taught (i.e. programmed to do) that in elementary school and have never stopped. I had to laugh when I noticed that one of the 'changes' was to carry the Book of the Gospels and NOT the lectionary.

In my Maronite Catholic Church, the first thing anyone sees when entering are 3 large alcoves, illuminated by downlights. These contain, from left to right - the Tabernacle (with a candle burning before it), the Crucifix, and the Book of the Gospels. These are the 3 most important elements of our faith! These are givens and should NEVER be abandoned, set aside or forgotten. "

[johnb2004]

Cardinal George also noted that at least one liturgical commentator had been quoted in U.S. news reports observing that as a matter of church law approved particular law prevails over an instruction from a Vatican congregation in the event the two are in conflict.

Is he saying that local laws override the Vatican? Perhaps, I am not reading this correctly?

[Desdemona]

If Burke was out at CBC, it's technically not his house.

The high schools around here are really a cultural thing and a hotbed of liturgical abuse - and you can't convince the teachers at the schools there is any problem. They just don't believe there is.

[lrslattery]

I would also tend to believe that he was put in a awkward position in this case.

I believe we have been extraordinarily blessed to have had Bishop Burke assigned here. I look forward to the positive changes he will implement here in the coming months.

[Bigg Red]

I still don't understand why we now receive the Eucharist in both forms? Why is this necessary? This was not done for hundreds of years. Why now?