Methodists Divided on Homosexuality: Conservatives in the Methodist Church propose split

AP ^ | 6 May 04 | AP

[xzins]

PITTSBURGH — Conservatives in the United Methodist Church (search) proposed splitting the denomination Thursday, the latest sign of decades of disagreement over homosexuality that continued at a national meeting this week.

The Rev. William Hinson, president of the Confessing Movement for conservative Methodists, said evangelicals were just beginning to explore the idea and that no break was imminent in the 8.3 million-member church.

But he said he and others were convinced that no compromise could be found after yet another bitter General Conference debate over what the Bible says about gay sex.

"We can't bridge that divide," said Hinson, former pastor of First United Methodist Church of Houston.

The Rev. Troy Plummer, executive director of the hojReconciling Ministries Network, which advocates for gay and lesbian Methodists, rejected the idea. He accused evangelicals of plotting to harm the church.

"It disturbs me," he said. "We can still be a family together."

The announcement came after conservatives prevailed at the meeting in maintaining the church's firm stand against homosexuality.

Delegates affirmed that gay sex was "incompatible with Christian teaching" and made it a chargeable offense under church law for clergy to conduct same-sex marriages and for unmarried ministers to have sex.

However, evangelicals expect that those who want a broader role for gays and lesbians in the church will continue to ignore church law and appoint sexually active homosexual clergy.

"I think that a number of us in the evangelical coalition are wondering if it's time for us to consider some kind of loving division," said the Rev. James Heidinger, leader of the Methodist evangelical group Good News.

Hinson said conservatives want the church to form a task force that would divide up church property and funds. That idea would meet intense opposition from many in the denomination. Church law prevents any congregation from walking away with Methodist assets.

Conservatives hoped to seek approval from delegates to form such a task force before the meeting ends Friday. However, they said they would explore the idea on their own even if delegates say no.

Hinson said evangelicals were inspired partly by conservatives in the Episcopal Church, who formed a breakaway network of congregations after that denomination consecrated its first openly gay bishop last year.

The leader of the Episcopal network, Bishop Robert Duncan of Pittsburgh, spoke about his movement in a meeting with Methodist evangelicals last week.

...snip

[xzins]

fascinating....we won every vote, but there's a realization that the gnostic/new age/wiccan/unbelievers are going to continue doing whatever they wish

[xzins]

ping

[xzins]

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UM Action : 2004 General Conference

An Amicable and Just Separation
The Rev. Dr. Bill Hinson May 6, 2004

The following address was presented to the UM Decision Breakfast in Pittsburgh, PA. Dr. Hinson is the president of the Confessing Movement within the United Methodist Church.

I have consulted with some of the members of my Confessing Movement steering committee and have not taken a formal vote.  I am speaking only for myself.

All of us have poignant moments when deep sadness sweeps over our souls.  I recall as a young preacher when our church was the largest Protestant denomination in America at the time first began to lose members.  I’ve always thought number were important because they represent people.  Besides I’ve become convinced that people who run numbers down never run them up.  Mine is the last generation of United Methodists preachers who can remember when we were a growing movement.  

I believe that every Christian possesses a deep sense of joy.   I remember the story of Bishop Arthur Moore who was riding a train across south Georgia on a hot summer’s day.  His train pulled into a small station and from his open window he noticed an old man leaning his chair back against the wall, whose eyes were closed.   The bishop calling out from the train inquired, “Friend, do the people around here enjoy their religion?”  Without opening his eyes or moving a muscle, the old man responded to the bishop saying, “Them what has it do.”

I’ve felt another poignant moment of sadness on the morning I learned that Karen Dammann had been acquitted.  For the first time in my life I wasn’t so eager to go out and face the world with the announcement that I’m a United Methodist pastor.  Last Monday night when six of us met with fifteen persons who are of a different perspective, my sadness took on a new dimension.  We took turns talking in that circle about the church and where we were coming from.  At the end of more than two hours my feelings had coalesced to the point that I was fully persuaded we cannot bridge the gap separating us.  I was and am profoundly saddened by that conviction.  

Our friends in the Western Jurisdiction have left us.  Our covenant is in shreds.  And when I speak of covenant I’m not talking about the trust clause. I’m talking about a sacred trust that is much deeper and more binding.  Through the years such a trust could be counted on to keep us faithful to what we have discussed voted on, and placed into our Book of Discipline.  All of that has now changed.  More than that, our friends who have broken our covenant feel that they themselves are broken, because the votes of this Conference have largely gone against them, they feel disenfranchised, they feel we are doing spiritual violence to them, and have told us clearly that we are not truth tellers.  In addition they are seeking autonomy from the larger body.   They garnered more than 300 votes in an attempt to do things their way with regard to ordination in the Western Jurisdiction.  

No one enjoys stepping on another person’s dream.  Some playwright whose name I cannot recall told of the crossing of the Red Sea by the children of Israel.   When the waters began to roll over the Egyptian chariots, and as they began to drown in the sea, Miriam and the children of Israel began to sing and dance because of their great victory.  God however inquired, “How can you sing and dance when my children are drowning?”  No earnest Christian enjoys seeing another human suffering.  I believe it is time for us end this cycle of pain we are inflicting on each other.

There is a great gulf fixed between those of us who are centered on Scripture and our friends who are of another persuasion.  Repeatedly they have spoken of the need to get our church in step with our culture.  We on the other hand have no desire to be the chaplain to an increasingly godless society.  Rather our desire is to be faithful to the Word of God.  

I shall never forget the puzzled look on the face of a newscaster this past Summer.  He was covering the events leading up to the selection of an active homosexual as a bishop in the Episcopal Church.  He asked one of the priests who had worked hardest to elect Gene Robinson, “How do you feel about what you are doing?  This is the first time in recorded history that a mainline denomination has gone against the clear teaching of Scripture.  How do you feel about that?” he asked.  The priest responded, “I feel fine about that.  You can’t be guided in the 21st century by an old book like the Bible.”  The newscaster, obviously bewildered, asked then, “What is your ultimate authority if it is not the Bible?”  The priest responded, “Our authority comes from the Holy Spirit working in community.”  Now, at first glance, I thought, “How subjective can you get?”  That means a group could meet down at the convention center and decide the Holy Spirit was leading them to be polygamous.  However, as I reflected on his statement, I realized that the church was born out of the Holy Spirit working through community.  That is precisely what happened at Pentecost.  What is the difference?  The difference is Simon Peter stood up immediately and announced that what was occurring was the fulfillment of Scripture.  What the prophet Joel had declared was becoming a reality.  Then I understood.  The Holy Spirit leads in the fulfillment of Scripture and in the illumination of Scripture.  He never contradicts the Word of God. If you are being lead by a spirit to do something that is contrary to the Word of God, you must test the spirit, because it is clearly not the Spirit of God.  The Holy Spirit will never contradict Himself.  

For many, truth is still evolving.  They sincerely believe that the world has the wisdom we need and we should relativize the Bible so as to bring our thoughts into harmony with whatever the current worldly wisdom suggests.  We on the other hand believe that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.  And the grass withers, and the flowers fades, but the Word of God shall stand forever.  We think that old military man Omar Bradley had it right when he said that, “We do not set our course by the light of every passing ship but by the stars.”  

Let me confess that there is a deep yearning in my heart as strong as when I first began to preach to be called up in the wave of God’s Spirit that is sweeping the earth especially in the global south.  Just this week I had dinner with two of the bishops from Africa to listen to them speak of the mission and ministry being accomplished in their areas is to make the heart homesick for a place in the world revival.  

I would not even tell my wife of my dream and conviction when I first began to preach in my 39 member church in south Georgia.  I really thought a great revival would begin in that tiny church that would sweep through the community and eventually the nation and finally across the world.  I thought God might use me to ignite that holy fire.  Now my earnest desire is for my church, which exists to spread scriptural holiness across the earth, might be free to recapture our mission and refocus on the great commission to make disciples of all nations.  I dream of men’s, women’s and youth’s movements grounded in the Great Commission.  

We cannot fight both church and culture.  Our culture alone confronts us with more challenges than we can humanly speaking confront and challenge.    That struggle, combined with the continuous struggle in the church, is more than we can bear.  And our people, who have been faithful and patient, should not have to continue to endure our endless conflict.  I believe the time has come when we must to begin to explore an amicable and just separation that will free us both from our cycle of pain and conflict.  Such a just separation will protect the property rights of churches and the pension rights of clergy.  It will also free us to reclaim our high calling and to fulfill our mission in the world.

 

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[opus86]

The difference is Simon Peter stood up immediately and announced that what was occurring was the fulfillment of Scripture. What the prophet Joel had declared was becoming a reality. Then I understood. The Holy Spirit leads in the fulfillment of Scripture and in the illumination of Scripture. He never contradicts the Word of God.

Bingo. I agree with Rev. Hinson. He refuses to sacrifice truth for the sake of unity.

[Revelation 911]

so who bails - the good guys or the gays ?

you guys are welcome over here in the free methodist church

19. HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR

A/342. Homosexual behavior, as all sexual deviation, is a perversion of God's created order (Genesis 1-3). The sanctity of marriage and the family is to be preserved against all manner of immoral conduct (Exodus 22:16-17; Deuteronomy 22:23-28; Leviticus 20:10-16), thus the Free Methodist Church does not recognize the legitimacy or participation in the practice of same-sex marriage.

Homosexual behavior is contrary to the will of God as clearly stated in Scripture (Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 1 Timothy 1:8-10).

Persons with homosexual inclinations are accountable to God for their behavior (Romans 14:12).

The forgiving and delivering grace of God in Christ is all-sufficient for the homosexual (1 John 1:9; Hebrews 7:25; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11). The church has a personal and corporate responsibility to be God's instrument of healing, restoring love to the homosexual seeking recovery of Christian conduct and life-style (2 Corinthians 2:7-8).

The church opposes legislation which makes homosexual conduct or life-style legitimate.

[xzins]

The odd thing is that we conservatives won every vote during this GC. Our discipline is stronger than ever.

Yet, we all know that they homosexualites will disrupt and disobey despite what we've done.

[Revelation 911]

if theyre gonna disrupt and disobey UM doctrines and disciplines cant you initiate trial against them for thier removal

[xzins]

That's the part we haven't changed....the trials process.

Currently, there is no review of a church trial. Therefore, we have a situation where the bishop in the region pretty much puts together the trial: judge, jury, prosecutor, and charges.

What that means is no justice takes place....justice for the denomination, that is.

We have one remaining day to change the trials process.

[Seven_0]

"Such a just separation will protect the property rights of churches and the pension rights of clergy. It will also free us to reclaim our high calling and to fulfill our mission in the world."

Sad reason to split. Even if you could kick them out, the courts would probably make you take them back.

[RonF]

Why didn't the conservatives pass a resolution making it a chargable offense to ordain a sexually active homosexual?

[HarleyD]

As I see what happening in the church (any church) is a loosening of doctrine to such an extent that homosexuality is the culmination of what we have sown. We've allowed the ordination of women, encourage social programs instead of Christ-centered programs, turned a blind eye to divorce, accepted abortionist, on and on and on. Most of this nonsense has been conservatives acquiescing to liberals for years.

It won't be enough to break away and just forbid gays from preaching. Hard conservative reform is going to be necessary.

[Corin Stormhands]

"It disturbs me," he said. "We can still be a family together."

Sure you can be a family. But you can't be a church.

[LiteKeeper]

It is time for the true Church to shun the apostate church.

[RobbyS]

I read Dr. Hinson 's statement and was greatly moved. A point
he makes is that the liberals have subverted every church in which they have been active. This is true not only of the Methodists and the Episcopalians but the Catholic Church as well. The clash between them and true Catholics has not yet become evident although the moves against Kerry suggest we are moving in that direction. In any case, I hope that the Evangelicals in the Methodist and the Episcopal Churches do form an alliance. It would be a natural union that has been put off for more than a hundred and fifty years.

[ahadams2]

I think the point is that in the UMC (as ecusa) there are two different, competing, and incompatible religions - at least the author of this article recognizes that fact and acknowledges it. I guess my question is whether or not your revisionists have yet grasped this reality - ours had not prior to last summer, and even now only some of them are beginning to understand it.

[xzins]

I believe that our gnostic revisionists are fully aware, enjoy hurting others in a sadistic sense, and realize that their funds would disappear if they didn't parasite off of a real church.

We won every vote that came up, but we realize that the jezabelites are still there and will be intentionally disobedient.

[lightman]

The UMC is caught in the same struggle of old heresies in new clothing. I foresee fragmentation and division of many denominations (ELCA, ECUSA, PCUSA, UMC) around the poles of neognostic radical "inclusivisits" versus orthodox.

My hope is that simultaneously the orthodox of these communities will form a single new community, that the separations will be accompanied by a greater unity of orthodox believers than ever before. Now that would be REAL ecumenism--Gospel centered ecumenism!

[ntnychik]

Sad that all the efforts of the majority have not turned the hearts of those who want to continue the drift away from the Bible. But I guess that's not what turns hearts.
If there's a schism, my congregation will make its choice, then I will make mine.

Thanks for fighting the good fight.

[billorites]

A pansy who lived in Khartoum
Took a lesbian up to his room,
And they argued all night
Over who had the right
To do what, and with which, and to whom.