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MARIAN DEVOTION - Akathist Hymn to the Mother of God
Various ^

Posted on 05/03/2004 8:48:00 AM PDT by NYer

Akathist Hymn
to the Mother of God


 

Kontakion
To you, / powerful Queen and Ruler,
we sing/ this song of praise to you, Mother of God.
Since you/ have unconquerable power,
Protect us/ from all danger so that we may sing to you:
Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden - ever-pure!

 

Ode 1

From the Soul
An archangel was sent from Heaven, to greet the Mother of God. And as he saw You, O Lord, assuming human form, he stood rapt in amazement and cried out to her in these words:

Rejoice, O you, though whom joy will shine forth!
Rejoice, O you, through whom the curse will disappear!
Rejoice, O restoration of the fallen Adam!
Rejoice, O redemption of the tears of Eve!

Rejoice, O height, beyond human understanding!
Rejoice, O depth, not fathomed by the angels!
Rejoice, for you are the Throne of the King!
Rejoice, for you carried Him, Who carries all!

Rejoice, O morning star who manifests the Sun!
Rejoice, O womb of the Divine Incarnation!
Rejoice, O you, through whom Creation is renewed!
Rejoice, O you, through whom the Creator becomes a Babe!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
Knowing that she was pure, the most blessed Virgin quickly answered Gabriel saying: "My soul is unable to understand Your mysterious words. How is it, that you speak of a birth that is to come from a conception without seed, and sing: Alleluia?"

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 2

From the Soul
Trying to grasp the meaning of this mystery, the Virgin asked the holy messenger of God: "How is it possible that a son be born of a virginal womb? Tell me." But instead he answered her with great awe, crying out in these words:

Rejoice, Hidden secret of God's ineffable Plan!
Rejoice, for you believed in the Mystery unrevealed!
Rejoice, for you are the beginning of the miracles of Christ!
Rejoice, for you are the crown of the truths concerning Him!

Rejoice, O heavenly Ladder, by which God came down!
Rejoice, O Bridge, leading those on earth to heaven!
Rejoice, O Miracle, most-wondrous to the angels!
Rejoice, O Wound, bewailed by the demons!

Rejoice, for you gave birth to the glorious Light!
Rejoice, for you did not revel how it was done!
Rejoice, for you surpass the wisdom of the wise!
Rejoice, for you enlighten the minds of the faithful!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
When the power of the Most High overshadowed the one who is blessed among women, her fruitful womb conceived. She became for all a wondrous field — for those who wish to reap salvation while singing: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 3

From the Soul
Bearing God in her womb the Virgin hastened to Elizabeth, whose unborn child immediately recognized her greeting and rejoiced. Leaping up as if in song, he cried out to the Mother of God:

Rejoice, O Vine, bearing the unfolding Bloom!
Rejoice, O Land, who bears immortal Fruit!
Rejoice, O you, who cared for the Lover of mankind!
Rejoice, O you, who gave birth to the Giver of life!

Rejoice, O Field, bearing a wealth of compassion!
Rejoice, O Table, laden with gifts of mercy!
Rejoice, for you make Paradise blossom in beauty again!
Rejoice, for you prepare a haven for our souls!

Rejoice, most pleasing Incense of intercession!
Rejoice, Offering for the whole world!
Rejoice, good will of God unto all mankind
Rejoice, Confidence of all before God.

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
Joseph, a righteous man, was overcome by doubt and contradiction. He feared that You, all-blameless One, had been deluded by someone until he learned that Your conception was by the power of the Holy Spirit. Then Joseph cried out: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 4

From the Soul
The Shepherds heard the angels singing hymns of praise to Christ, who had come to earth in human flesh. They hurried to Him as would the flock to its Master and upon seeing God as the spotless Lamb nurtured from the womb of Mary, they greeted her saying:

Rejoice, Mother of the Lamb and the Shepherd!
Rejoice, Fold of spiritual lambs!
Rejoice, Protection against invisible foes!
Rejoice, Key to the doors of Paradise!

Rejoice, for the heavens rejoice with the earth!
Rejoice, for the earth sings praise with the heavens!
Rejoice, unceasing glory of the Apostles!
Rejoice, unconquerable courage of the Martyrs!

Rejoice, O firm foundation of faith!
Rejoice, O radiant recognition of grace!
Rejoice, O you through whom hell was stripped bare!
Rejoice, O you through whom we are clothed with glory.

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
When they saw God's wondrous Star, the Magi followed its glittering light as they would a beacon, in search of a mighty King. And having found Him, they drew near the unapproachable One, rejoicing and exclaiming: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 5

 From the Soul
When the sons of Chaldea beheld in the hands of the Virgin, Him, the Creator, who had fashioned mankind by His own Hand, they recognized in Him their Master, even though He had come as a tiny Babe. And so they hastened to honour Him with gifts and to the greet the most-blessed of all women:

Rejoice, O Mother of the never-setting Star!
Rejoice, O Dawn of the Mystic day!
Rejoice, O you, who quenched the furnace of error,
Rejoice, O you, who guard the disciples of the Holy Trinity!

Rejoice, for you banished from power the merciless tyrant!
Rejoice, for you made manifest Christ the Lord, the Lover of Mankind,
Rejoice, for you have delivered us from pagan worship!
Rejoice, for you freed us from unclean deeds.

Rejoice, O you who suppressed the worship of fire!
Rejoice, O you who quench the flames of the passions!
Rejoice, O Guide of the faithful towards wisdom!
Rejoice, O Joy of all generations!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
Having fulfilled Your prophecy, O Lord, the Magi returned to Babylon as God-bearing heralds. They preached to all and witnessed to You as the Christ, leaving Herod behind as a fool, who could not sing: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 6

From the Soul
Illuminating Egypt with the light of Truth, You dispelled the darkness of sin and seduction, O Saviour. The idols of that land fell down, unable to withstand Your power and all who were delivered from them greeted the Mother of God:

Rejoice, elation of mankind!
Rejoice, downfall of the demons!
Rejoice, for you crushed the power of deceit!
Rejoice, for you exposed the fraud of idols!

Rejoice, for like the Red Sea, you have drowned the Pharaoh of duplicity!
Rejoice, for like the rock, you have given drink to those who thirst for life!
Rejoice, Pillar of fire, guiding those in darkness!
Rejoice, Protection of the world, broader that the clouds!

Rejoice, O Successor to manna!
Rejoice, O Servant of the Banquet Divine!
Rejoice, O Promised Land!
Rejoice, Land of milk and honey!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
When Simeon was soon to leave this deceitful world, You were brought to him as a Child. Taking You into his arms he recognized You as the true God, and marveling at Your ineffable wisdom, he cried out: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 7

From the Soul
The Creator revealed a new creation when He came down to us, His creation. He came forth from a womb that had received no seed, preserving it intact as it was before, so that seeing this miracle we might sing to the Mother of God:

Rejoice, O Flower of incorruption!
Rejoice, O Garland of purity!
Rejoice, O you, who shine as a sign of the resurrection!
Rejoice, O you, who reveal the life of the angels!

Rejoice, Tree of good fruit from which the faithful feed!
Rejoice, shady Glen where many find shelter!
Rejoice, for you gave birth to the Saviour of the captives!
Rejoice, for you gave birth to the Leader for the lost!

Rejoice, Intercessor before the Just Judge!
Rejoice, Forgiveness of many sins!
Rejoice, Hope of the hopeless!
Rejoice, Tenderness beyond all expectations!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
Seeing this miraculous birth, let us become strangers to the world and fix our minds on Heaven. Indeed, it is for this reason that the God Most-High appeared on earth: e became a humble man, desiring to draw up to heaven all those who cry out to Him: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 8

 From the Soul
The Word unfathomed was wholly present here below, yet in no way absent from the realm on high. For this was a Divine Descent and not a change of place. His birth was from a Virgin who received God, as she heard these words:

Rejoice, Vessel of the uncontainable God!
Rejoice, Gate of Solemn Mystery!
Rejoice, Unheard Message for unbelievers!
Rejoice, highest Praise of the faithful!

Rejoice, most holy chariot of Him, who rides upon the Cherubim!
Rejoice, most glorious Dwelling of the One above the Seraphim!
Rejoice, O you, who joined opposites!
Rejoice O you, who united virginity and motherhood!

Rejoice, O you, through whom sin was absolved!
Rejoice, O you, through whom paradise was re-opened!
Rejoice, Key to the Kingdom of Christ!
Rejoice, Hope of eternal blessing!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Soul
All the angelic hosts were amazed at Your Incarnation, for they saw God, Whom no one can approach, as a man, approachable by all. He came to dwell among us and He heard from all: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 9

From the Soul
Worldly speakers become mute as fish before you, O Mother of God, for they are at a loss to say how you remained a virgin and yet were able to bear a child. As for us, while marveling at this mystery, we cry out to you with faith:

Rejoice, Vessel of the Wisdom of God!
Rejoice, Treasury of His Providence!
Rejoice, Reproof of foolish philosophers!
Rejoice, for the eloquent become speechless before you!

Rejoice, for the clever have made fools of themselves!
Rejoice, for the myth-makers have been silenced!
Rejoice, for you dispelled the Athenian snares!
Rejoice, for you filled the nets of the fishermen!

Rejoice, O you, who draw us from the depths of ignorance!
Rejoice, O Lamplight of understanding to many!
Rejoice, O Ship, for all who seek salvation!
Rejoice, O Harbour, in the voyage of life!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Soul
Wishing to save the world, the Creator of all came to us as He had promised. Being our God and our Shepherd, out of love for us He took flesh and appeared to all. As man - he called out to all mankind; and as God - he heard from us: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 10

From the Soul
O Virgin, Mother of God, you are the strength of virgins and of all those who take refuge in you. For the Creator of heaven and earth gave you to be our Protectress, O Pure One. He dwelt in your womb and taught all to cry out to you:

Rejoice, Pillar of virginity!
Rejoice, Gate of salvation!
Rejoice, Leader of spiritual renewal!
Rejoice, Bestower of God's grace!

Rejoice, for you restore those conceived in sin!
Rejoice, for you counsel those lost in their understanding!
Rejoice, for you stopped the corrupter of hearts!
Rejoice, for you gave birth to the Sower of Chastity!

Rejoice, bridal Chamber of a betrothal without seed!
Rejoice, for you joined the faithful to their Lord!
Rejoice, gracious Mother of virgins!
Rejoice, Bridal escort of Holy souls!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Heart
The greatest song of praise cannot compare with the multitude of Your mercies, O Holy King! We could sing to You as many songs as there are grains of sand, and yet do nothing worthy of what You have given to us, who cry out to You: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 11

From the Heart
We see the holy Virgin as a light-bearing lamp, appearing to those who live in darkness. For she is the one who kindled the immaterial Light, and now, she leads all mankind to the knowledge of God. She fills ours minds with radiance and is worthy of being praised in these words:

Rejoice, Ray of the Living Sun!
Rejoice, Radiance, unfading in splendor!
Rejoice, Lightning-flash that enlightens our souls!
Rejoice, Thunder-clap, that strikes down all foes!

Rejoice, for you caused the many-starred Light to dawn,
Rejoice, for you caused the ever-flowing River to spring,
Rejoice, Icon of the baptismal font,
Rejoice, for you wash away the stain of sin!

Rejoice, flowing water, that cleanses the conscience!
Rejoice, holy Vessel, overflowing with joy!
Rejoice, Fragrance of the sweetness Christ!
Rejoice, Life of the Mystical Banquet!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

From the Soul
The Lord, who settles all men's scores, desired to make right the ancient debts by means of grace. He came of His own will to those who had fallen from His grace and He tore up the record of their wrong-doings. From all He hears: Alleluia!

Alleluia (3).

 

Ode 12

From the Soul
As we sing of Your childbirth, we praise you as the living Temple, O Mother of God. For the Lord, Who holds all things in His Hand made His dwelling in Your womb. He hallowed and He glorified You, teaching all to sing to You:

Rejoice, O Tabernacle of God the Word!
Rejoice, O Holy One, greater than the Holies!
Rejoice, O Ark, made golden by the Spirit!
Rejoice, O inexhaustible Treasury of life!

Rejoice, precious Crown of pious Kings!
Rejoice, sacred glory of reverent priests!
Rejoice, invincible tower of the Church!
Rejoice, indestructible Wall of the kingdom!

Rejoice, O you, through whom Victory is assured!
Rejoice, O you, through whom enemies are cast down!
Rejoice, O Healing of my body!
Rejoice, O Salvation of my soul!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

 

Kontakion
O Mother worthy of all praise;
you who have given birth to the Word,
the Holiest of the Holy,
accept this present offering, deliver us from all affliction,
and save from the future punishment those who cry out to you:
Alleluia!

  

Final Ode

From the Soul
To you, O powerful Queen and Ruler, we sing this song of praise to you, Mother of God. Since you have unconquerable power, protect us from all danger so that we may sing to you: Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

An archangel was sent from Heaven, to greet the Mother of God. And as he saw You, O Lord, assuming human form, he stood rapt in amazement and cried out to her in these words :

Rejoice, O you, though whom joy will shine forth!
Rejoice, O you, through whom the curse will disappear!
Rejoice, O restoration of the fallen Adam!
Rejoice, O redemption of the tears of Eve!

Rejoice, O height, beyond human understanding!
Rejoice, O depth, not fathomed by the angels!
Rejoice, for you are the Throne of the King!
Rejoice, for you carried Him, Who carries all!

Rejoice, O morning star who manifests the Sun!
Rejoice, O womb of the Divine Incarnation!
Rejoice, O you, through whom Creation is renewed!
Rejoice, O you, through whom the Creator becomes a Babe!

Rejoice, O Bride and Maiden — ever-pure!

 

Prayer to the Mother of God

All: O Most Holy Sovereign Lady and Mother of God, powerful to all good, receive from your unworthy servants this praiseworthy hymn, which is due to you alone, for you have been chosen from among the human race and are higher than all celestial and earthly creatures. For through you, our Almighty Lord has dwelt among us; through you, we have come to know the Son of God and are honoured to have his Most Holy Body and Most Precious Blood. Thus you are blessed among all generations.

You are higher in honour than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious that the Seraphim. O most-honourable and most holy Mother of God, do not cease to pray for us today, your unworthy servants, so that we may be protected against the guile of the evil one; from his greediness; and that we be delivered unharmed from the his deadly temptations.

Protect us with your prayer until the end of our life and before the eternal judgment; that we, being saved by your help and intercession, might give glory, praise, thanksgiving and honour for all, to the Holy Trinity, One God and Creator of all creatures, now and always and forever. Amen.

 

Dismissal

Priest: Wisdom!

All: Higher in honour than the Cherubim* and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim.* Who a virgin, gave birth to the Word of God,* you truly are the Mother of God and we praise you!

Priest: Glory to You, Christ God, Our Hope, glory to You!

All: †Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, now, and forever, and unto ages of ages. Amen. Lord, have mercy (3). Give the blessing!

Priest: May Christ our True God, through the prayers of his most pure Mother and those all the Saints, have mercy on us and save us, for he is good and the Lover of mankind.

All: Amen.

 

Rejoice Virgin Mary

Rejoice Virgin Mary, Full of Grace!
O Theotokos, the Lord is with you!
Blessed are you among women!
and blessed is the fruit of your womb:
For you have given birth,
to the Saviour of our souls (2).


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KEYWORDS: marianism; maryworship
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To: biblewonk; HarleyD; Cleburne; topcat54; Pyro7480; sandyeggo; sartorius

Eastern Monks say that "He who welcomes the Mother, also welcomes the Son; but he who rejects the Mother must finally reject the Son."

Mary's Royal status (and that of Jesus) is made quite clear in the genealogy of the Royal House of David given in the New Testament.

Theotokos

"After this, we receive the doctrine of the resurrection from the dead, of which Jesus Christ our Lord became the first-fruits; Who bore a Body, in truth, not in semblance, derived from Mary the mother of God (59) in the fulness of time sojourning among the race, for the remission of sins: who was crucified and died, yet for all this suffered no diminution of His Godhead."
Alexander of Alexandria,Epistle to Alexander,12(A.D. 324),in NPNF2,III:40

"And the Angel on his appearance, himself confesses that he has been sent by his Lord; as Gabriel confessed in the case of Zacharias, and also in the case of Mary, bearer of God."
Athanasius,Orations III,14(A.D. 362),in NPNF2,IV:401

"Many, my beloved, are the true testimonies concerning Christ. The Father bears witness from heaven of His Son: the Holy Ghost bears witness, descending bodily in likeness of a dove: the Archangel Gabriel bears witness, bringing good tidings to Mary: the Virgin Mother of God bears witness: the blessed place of the manger bears witness."
Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,X:19(c.A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:62

"If anyone does not believe that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, he is severed from the Godhead."
Gregory of Nazianzus,To Cledonius,101(A.D. 382),in NPNF2,VII:439

"Just as, in the age of Mary the mother of God, he who had reigned from Adam to her time found, when he came to her and dashed his forces against the fruit of her virginity as against a rock, that he was shattered to pieces upon her, so in every soul which passes through this life in the flesh under the protection of virginity, the strength of death is in a manner broken and annulled, for he does not find the places upon which he may fix his sting."
Gregory of Nyssa,On Virginity,14 (A.D. 370),in NPNF2,V:359-360

"He reshaped man to perfection in Himself, from Mary the Mother of God through the Holy Spirit."
Epiphanius,The man well-anchored,75 (A.D. 374),in JUR,II:70

"Let, then, the life of Mary be as it were virginity itself, set forth in a likeness, from which, as from a mirror, the appearance of chastity and the form of virtue is reflected. From this you may take your pattern of life, showing, as an example, the clear rules of virtue: what you have to correct, to effect, and to hold fast. The first thing which kindles ardour in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater than the Mother of God?"
Ambrose,Virginity,II:6 (c.A.D. 378),in NPNF2,X:374

"To the question: 'Is Mary the bearer of Man, or the bearer of God?' we must answer: 'Of Both' "
Theodore of Mopsuestia,The Incarnation,15 (ante A.D. 428),in TLCF,168

"AND so you say, O heretic, whoever you may be, who deny that God was born of the Virgin, that Mary the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ ought not to be called Theotocos, i.e., Mother of God, but Christotocos, i.e., only the Mother of Christ, not of God. For no one, you say, brings forth what is anterior in time. And of this utterly foolish argument whereby you think that the birth of God can be understood by carnal minds, and fancy that the mystery of His Majesty can be accounted for by human reasoning, we will, if God permits, say something later on. In the meanwhile we will now prove by Divine testimonies that Christ is God, and that Mary is the Mother of God."
John Cassian,The Incarnation of Christ,II:2 (A.D. 430),in NPNF2,XI:556

"But since the Holy Virgin brought forth after the flesh God personally united to the flesh, for this reason we say of her that she is Theotokos, not as though the nature of the Word had its beginning of being from the flesh, for he was in the beginning, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God....but, as we said before, because having personally united man's nature to himself..."
Cyril of Alexandria,To Nestorius,Epistle 17:11 (A.D. 430),in CCC,306

"If anyone will not confess that the Emmanuel is very God, and that therefore the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God (Theotokos), inasmuch as in the flesh she bore the Word of God made flesh [as it is written, 'The Word was made flesh': let him be anathema."
Council of Ephesus,Anathemas Against Nestorius,I (A.D. 430),in NPNF2,XIV:206

"For by the singular gift of Him who is our Lord and God, and withal, her own son, she is to be confessed most truly and most blessedly--The mother of God 'Theotocos,' but not in the sense in which it is imagined by a certain impious heresy which maintains, that she is to be called the Mother of God for no other reason than because she gave birth to that man who afterwards became God, just as we speak of a woman as the mother of a priest, or the mother of a bishop, meaning that she was such, not by giving birth to one already a priest or a bishop, but by giving birth to one who afterwards became a priest or a bishop. Not thus, I say, was the holy Mary 'Theotocos,' the mother of God, but rather, as was said before, because in her sacred womb was wrought that most sacred mystery whereby, on account of the singular and unique unity of Person, as the Word in flesh is flesh, so Man in God is God."
Vincent of Lerins,Commonitories,15 (A.D. 434),in NPNF2,XI:142-143

"So then He was both in all things and above all things and also dwelt in the womb of the holy Mother of God, but in it by the energy of the incarnation."
John Damascene,Source of Knowledge,III:7 (A.D. 743),in NPNF2,IX:51

121 posted on 05/04/2004 10:10:58 AM PDT by NYer (O Promise of God from age to age. O Flower of the Gospel!)
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To: HarleyD
>>. He did not have our sin nature but, like Adam, had the capacity for sin. However, unlike Adam, Christ was tempted for 33 years and still remained sinless. And Christ recognized this difference:<<

Well said.

>>You assume a person inherits their genetic makeup from the mother. I would disagree and say the genetic makeup is from the father.<<

Hey, Harley: You would be flat-out wrong. There are two types of genetic material: DNA for organismal replication, and RNA for cellular function (subcellular replication.) A child receives 50% of his DNA, 100% of his RNA, and 99% of his initial zygotic mass from his mother.

>> In this sense the literal Father. After all the Nicene Creed itself states Christ was "conceived by the Holy Spirit".<<

Be careful not to inadverdantly twist words here. This means that he was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit. In the bible, the angel Gabriel says to Mary, "You shall conceive..."

>> "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!"<<

Hey, be careful! You just disproved Total Depravity!
122 posted on 05/04/2004 10:14:48 AM PDT by dangus
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To: topcat54
>>Sin comes generationally through the father.<<

??!?
123 posted on 05/04/2004 10:20:11 AM PDT by dangus
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Comment #124 Removed by Moderator

To: dangus
"A child receives 50% of his DNA, 100% of his RNA, and 99% of his initial zygotic mass from his mother."

I'm no reproductive therapas but the sperm that issues forth from the man is alive. The woman's egg, to my knowledge is not.

"This means that he was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Hmmm...I looked this up in the Greek and I will say the very few verses where this is mentioned is very inconclusive. It could be interpreted your way, my way or I even thought of some other ways. I don't like to base my theology on such inconclusiveness. The only thing I'm willing to say is Mary found favor with God, was a virgin and by the power of the Holy Spirit was found with child. How this miracle took place is unclear.

"If you then, being evil, ..." Hey, be careful! You just disproved Total Depravity!

Oh, really! I think this verse illustrates Total Depravity.

125 posted on 05/04/2004 11:32:07 AM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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Comment #127 Removed by Moderator

Comment #128 Removed by Moderator

To: sartorius
You're not saying a hen's egg is alive before a rooster comes along are you?
129 posted on 05/04/2004 12:14:43 PM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: sartorius
"And when the Catholic Church recognizes that Truth has been revealed but which we cannot understand, it is called a mystery."

Protestants have the same belief. Only our mysteries are those areas not revealed in the scriptures. We don't base our mysteries upon the doctrine of men.

130 posted on 05/04/2004 12:19:23 PM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: Pyro7480
Help defend Our Lady on this thread!

**
I see no point in wasting my time on people who ridicule our traditions. You'll never change the minds of the bigots.
131 posted on 05/04/2004 12:20:28 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Never again trust Democrats with national security!)
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Comment #133 Removed by Moderator

To: seamole
So clones of the mother are free from original sin?

Do you know any? :-)

In theory, clones are a variation on identical twins. So it's a non-issue.

What about that new process where two women mix their DNA?

What about humans and Martians? Why discuss theories that have no basis in reality?

In any case you cannot create in a test tube the conditions under which Our Lord was conceived. His genetic material was the product of the miraculous generation of the Holy Spirit and the virgin. No other human, either real or theoretical, falls into that category.

134 posted on 05/04/2004 12:41:05 PM PDT by topcat54
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To: Campion
That's not in the Bible, Harley. That's Protestant tradition.

I think it is in the Bible. "Sin came into the world through one MAN..." Don't you find this statement a little odd since Eve took the first bite? Wouldn't you think that Paul should have said, "Sin came into the world through one WOMAN..."? Paul had it right because sin is transmitted through the man.

(BTW, Catholics and Orthodox believe nothing remotely like it. Original sin is the inherited lack of grace, not some polluted "Adamic nature" that is transmitted from men.)

You might include some Protestants as well. Reformers are just about the only ones (there are a few others) who believe in original sin.

Quite frankly I don't understand why you think a virgin birth was necessary.

136 posted on 05/04/2004 12:49:29 PM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: HarleyD
>> I'm no reproductive therapas but the sperm that issues forth from the man is alive. The woman's egg, to my knowledge is not.<<

Don't know where you ever got that from. The egg is very much alive. In fact, unlike sperm, an egg can be induced into forming a whole, new, adult life form. (This harder in actual practice.)

>> Oh, really! I think this verse illustrates Total Depravity.<<

Hmm? "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts..." This statement is a biblical reminder that even evil (unsaved) parents still provide those good things which are necessary for their children. You do not need the spiritual enlightenment of salvation in order to feed your child, care for it, teach it basic skills. All these things are good things, and parents know how to provide these good things for their children. They are insufficient for salvation, but they still are beneficial towards salvation.

The care that even unredeemed parents provide their children functions as a prevening grace, which is given by God through them so as to prepare a child for further grace.
137 posted on 05/04/2004 12:51:06 PM PDT by dangus
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Comment #138 Removed by Moderator

To: sartorius
I don't wish to make too much out of this since I told dangus I'm not sure how the Holy Spirit brought this about. However, I believe you'll find the sperm will swim towards the egg. There are even studies which suggest that sperm "smells" and can sense the egg. And many sites says sperm can "live" up to 24 hours outside the body. This all indicates to me life.
139 posted on 05/04/2004 12:55:26 PM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: dangus
Just a slight correction:

Hmm? "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts..." This statement is a biblical reminder that even evil (unsaved) (totally depraved) parents still provide those good things which are necessary for their children. ;O)

140 posted on 05/04/2004 12:58:44 PM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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