Vatican says Mass norms must be followed exactly to ensure reverence

Catholic News Service ^ | April 23, 2004 | Cindy Wooden

[gemoftheocean]

I agree that no girl "has" to serve mass to have a good relationship with God. But that is different from saying she should be PROHIBITED on account of her being a female from doing that function. And just how insecure were your little brothers? REAL men need not fear REAL women. REAL men do not quake in fear if REAL women are capable. It's a lesson they should ALL learn when boys are learning that girls do not have "cooties" and girls are learning that boys do not have "cooties." There is no "separate but equal" opportunity existing if girls can't be altar servers. I have no problem with "boy scouts" or any of that. Girls can have clubs and organizations too, that provide similar experiences. But if the laity is "equal" then the church should act like it!

[gemoftheocean]

Pink is fine...but somehow, I just "knew."

[Desdemona]

My little brothers, who are now about a foot taller than me, weren't insecure, but they understand that they have duties by virtue of being male. Just as my sister and I have duties by virtue of being female. We are complimentary.

Nowhere does the church say that the duties should be the same.

Oh, and REAL women don't complain about "fairness". We accept gracefully and demurely.

[Desdemona]

Pink is fine...but somehow, I just "knew."

Knew what, that I grew up persecuted by mean people? Or that I have a thing for pink? That I have long hair and wear skirts almost exclusively? That I embroider, crochet and quilt and enjoy it? That I've had 18 years of voice training? That I'm relentlessly color coordinated?

I think I've an idea what you just "knew".

[gemoftheocean]

Nah, don't read TOO much into it. I've got some pink stuff too. But I somehow just "knew" you had a considerable chunk of "pink stuff." ;-D Please, at least tell me you weren't one of those girls that just squealed for some big strong man to "have to" kill the nasty spider for you or carry your seriously 5 pound heavy history text book home from school for you too. [If you WERE one of those girls, you were all transparently phoney!]

[gemoftheocean]

Oh, and REAL women don't complain about "fairness". We accept gracefully and demurely.

Then I guess Mother Teresa was wrong when she spoke up about the unfairness of abortion. I guess she should have just waited until the so much more capable men around her spoke up so she could have stayed "demure."

Please, between, you and the rantings of Pelosi today, I have to get up and go wretch now.

I've long thought that it's not so much MEN that limit women's legitimate opportunities, but insecure WOMEN....

[Desdemona]

Are you a cat person? Do yourself a favor and get a labrador retreiver. Great dogs. They keep you humble.

Killing children in the womb is not unfair. It is EVIL. Plain and simple. Recognizing evil and identifying it as such is what everyone should do. Even feminine women can do that. That does not change the fact that serving at Mass is a privilege, not a right. So is bearing children. One is for men, one for women.

Please, don't wretch on my account. I have no idea what Pelosi did, but she is a wretched excuse for a Catholic and don't waste your time on her.

[Desdemona]

As a matter of fact, I carried a history book, calculus, biology and one incredibly big American Lit book home many days (enough to give me a backache) and killed cockroaches in my spare time. The books never all fit in my backpack. You see, I went to an all-girls school, so we didn't have any boys to carry home our books. We rode public transportation, too.

And at the same time carried a flute an oboe and my voice music and tape recorder, worked a part-time job and kept my grades up.

And through all of it, I still believe that boys are wronged when women push to deprive them of the privileges that they traditionally have had.

[VermiciousKnid]

The church used to have something for the girls: Sodality.

I was in it, and we girls did LOTS of things to serve the church.

But guess what? The pushy women Desdemona spoke of had most of them disbanded (I can think of only one still left, in rural Pennsylvania).

I remember not quite understanding what the problem was. They kept harping about how it was "demeaning" for the girls to be in a separate ministry and that the Sodality should be immediately disbanded and that all the young girls should be encouraged to become girl altar boys.

Well, it didn't happen immediately, but disband it they did, through attrition. They simply stopped asking the little girls if they wanted to join.

It took awhile, but soon enough, a new generation of little girls came about, and these little girls had never seen the Sodality's beautiful traditions, had never seen the processions we were so thrilled to join, had never seen the
white dresses and lace veils we got to wear to May Coronation and other celebrations...and they forgot about us. We became a fondly remembered but distant memory. Now, of course, most people don't even remember us at all.

So what do we have now? Well, we've got one or two altar boys and about a bazillion girl altar boys wearing those ridiculous Druid robes and flip-flops. The boys aren't interested in doing stuff with the girls -- girls infiltrate EVERYWHERE --there is NOWHERE where they can just be boys together.

Oh, and before you call me a milquetoast pantywaist, I can assure you that I could play ball with ANY of the boys -- and play it better than most. I spent a goodly portion of my day in jeans and sneakers. My mother forbade me from going outside the house if my hair wasn't firmly bound up by two long braids. I could shoot, hook my own worm, and clean my own fish. (And still do, BTW...)

But I could (and still can) sew, embroider, cook, and do all those things girls ought to be able to do.

So when you say that there isn't anything similar to altar boys for the girls, you need only look to those "pushy women" to find out WHY there isn't. This is their doing.

Regards,

PS: Being a redhead, pink is also one of my best colors, though I admit I didn't like it as a kid. Of course, both blue and green look good on me, too...

[Desdemona]

Come on out to St. Louis. Sodality is alive and well, although it's mostly women past college age and we don't make lace anymore. Quilts, yes, and other crafts, and bake sales and rumage sales, etc.

[VermiciousKnid]

Wow, no kidding. Sodality in the midwest...

Ours went by the wayside -- gosh, almost 20 years ago now. Haven't heard of any parish with Sodality ever since (except, as I say, my mother's childhood parish in rural PA).

I asked about starting it up again in my own parish, but predictably, I got a "you've got to be kidding" look. Too bad, because even though I don't even have a daughter, I would have been willing to run the whole thing.

Meanwhile, one of the young girls who is a couple of grades ahead of my own kids in the parish school got a peek at the Communion banner I am embroidering for my son's First Holy Communion -- I don't do felt -- has asked me to teach her to do it. I spoke to her mother about getting the gals together to learn these arts, and she seemed thrilled at the proposition. If enough kids ask, I will be happy to give a class for them. If not, I'll give her private tutoring.

A child like her would have LOVED Sodality, but since such a thing would apparently be "demeaning" to her, I guess she's going to have to do without it.

Regards,

[Desdemona]

We've always had Sodality. I suppose I hadn't thought about whether or not other places did, but the Sodality in my parents' parish does a lot. In my new parish, I'll have to look and see. I don't remember seeing it on the list. But, there are a lot of parishes here that have it. The big problem is the go go go lifestyle.

But, there was a call for people who like to crochet and knit to make prayer shawls.

[gemoftheocean]

LOL! you and desdemona are a pair. Relatively few parishes had sodalities for girls. It was a minority. What on earth would dictate that by allowing girls to serve you'd HAVE to disband a sodality? That's like saying because Pepsi comes along, Coke is going to go out of business. Or if there is a YMCA in town, then the boy scouts will shut down. I guess women should just be happy being nurses too instead of being doctors if they want to. Some stupid man may get his ego bruised if a woman has to prod his dangly male parts, and some stupid woman might get jealous because that woman should have stayed "feminine" and not become a doctor.

Poor little thing. Why you sew, and embroider, and cook. Things women "Should" [to use your own word] know. Yes, all those things are good. And I don't knock them. Sewing and cooking are useful life skills to know. But I do question your usage of the phrase "should know" with the skill of embroidery. "Embroider?" You're not a real woman unless you know how to "embroider?" Get real.

But somewhere along with your pink blankie you were also handed a list that said "oh, but girls shouldn't be doctors, shouldn't be lawyers...the men in their lives would feel 'threatened' and they'd never be able to find a man to marry them....my, my....and be able to serve mass? Mercy, where's my smelling salts? What next, a woman having an abortion on the altar too?"

Get a grip. As Freud said: "Sometimes a cigar, is just a cigar." And a girl handing a cruet or two to the priest at mass is a girl handing a cruet or two to the priest at mass.

You two must have had a lot of Marcia Brady posters on your walls.

You like your own choice of "sewing, embroidery, cooking." Fine. Let OTHER girls/women have the choice of serving at the altar. She's not denying you your pleasures. As Jesus said to Martha: "Mary has choosen the better part, and it shall not be denied her."

If the boys want to "Do their own thing" they can still light farts in a field somewhere, pee up a wall in a playground after dark, and snap towels at each other's behinds at the Y. Oh, and Augusta. They can still have all male golf clubs if they want. There has to be somewhere for those guys who used to have a clubhouse that posted the sign "no grils aloud." The women can have their embroidery clubs to be catty in. Meow.

[gemoftheocean]

And through all of it, I still believe that boys are wronged when women push to deprive them of the privileges that they traditionally have had.

Yes, we all know their pee-pees will have stunted growth. And you still haven't explained how they are _owed_ this unique man-made privilege...or mentioned why a boy who publicly takes a stand for abortion rights is so much more worthy to serve mass than the girl who publicly opposed him. That's an outright injustice. Standing up for the catholic faith had nothing to do with that boy's "privilege" of serving mass...but having a penis did. The girl would have been denied.

[gemoftheocean]

A child like her would have LOVED Sodality, but since such a thing would apparently be "demeaning" to her, I guess she's going to have to do without it.

Interesting thinking...because she'd like to know how to embroider...there's no way she might also want to serve at the altar...not that your parish SHOULDN'T also have a sodality too.

Can't decide if it's a good thing or not that you don't have a daughter. If she would have turned out to want to serve mass, you'd have made her life hell over it....OTOH....you are probably raising your son to think he has some innate privileges just because he is a male...and then later on he could potentially have to learn a lesson from his wife that his every desire is not the center of her life....

[gemoftheocean]

Are you a cat person? Do yourself a favor and get a labrador retreiver. Great dogs. They keep you humble

Wouldn't harbor a cat if I was given one by the pope personally. Cats are the devil's playmates. No cat has ever pulled anyone out of a burning building. It's not even so much that they can't...they STILL WOULDN'T WANT TO.

Labs are nice, but English Springer Spaniels RULE.

As regards Pelosi, that was a blow below the belt. Had just happened to have C-SPAN on and was overhearing her stupid remarks about how she was a "practising catholic" and a supporter of abortion rights. [You have to know what the enemy is doing.] Between your barefoot and pregnant stance and her abortion on demand stance I was throwing up in the middle.

[Desdemona]

So what brings on this raging case of penis envy? It's always curious to me when women start harping on male body parts. It's almost as if they think they have something to prove to someone other than God. There is a serious amount of freedom in letting men be men, staying out of their way and letting them be the provider.

Piece of advice, totally unsolicited...let it go. It's not worth the headaches and high blood pressure. I may not have served Mass, but I did cantor and song lead EVERY Sunday for 13 years, unless I was out of town. Believe me, that's a lot more work. It is my gift to give and I gave it freely. I've volunteered to do the same in my new parish. We'll see. My voice is a bit big for that choir.

Oh and by the way, my lab flushes, finishes AND retrieves. Usually frisbees, but she gets the occasional bird and/or rat.

[Desdemona]

Actually, I have a scrub the kitchen floor stance. And having spent all day with a pregnant woman (due Sunday), the feet swell so bad, they can't get their shoes on.

[sinkspur]

Piece of advice, totally unsolicited...let it go. It's not worth the headaches and high blood pressure. I may not have served Mass, but I did cantor and song lead EVERY Sunday for 13 years, unless I was out of town. Believe me, that's a lot more work.

Amen. Being a server at Mass today is largely perfunctory, there's so little for a server to actually DO.

Cantors, now there's a real workout at a Mass!

[gemoftheocean]

Well, good luck to your pregnant friend. May the birth go well.