New face found on Turin shroud (MORE EVIDENCE IT IS FAKE)

London Telegraph ^ | (Filed: 13/04/2004) | Roger Highfield, Science Editor

[RaceBannon]

New face found on Turin shroud Roger Highfield, Science Editor (Filed: 13/04/2004)

The haunting image of a tall, bearded man bearing the marks of crucifixion that adorns the Turin shroud has been called one of the greatest religious hoaxes - one that has intrigued scientists and believers for decades.

Yesterday, the respected Institute of Physics in London renewed speculation about the revered object by announcing that a "ghostly image" had been discovered on the back.

The cloth has been hailed by some as the burial shroud of Christ but, in a milestone study 15 years ago, three teams concluded after carbon dating that it originated from between 1260 and 1390.

It led to the widespread conclusion that the shroud was a pious hoax created for the pilgrimage business.

This is an excerpt to the original article. Click on the link above

[Revelation 911]

They may have contacted you, but it is still wrong.

So, Jesus appearing to me in my NDE is wrong ? - I saw no other spirits - just Him....in His glory -

I conjured no spirits - Thats Gods realm - I saw what was shown to me

[shroudie]

It is interesting that some people who believe that the Shroud is authentic are not Christian. Several shroud researchers are Jewish and some are agnositic, and they have accepted that it is authentic. Barrie Schwortz, who appeared on the PBS special, who is a good friend, is Jewish (not Jews for Jesus) and convinced that it is genuine.

There is, from some people on this thread, and in other FR threads, a hint of anti-Catholic bias -- a bias against relics and veneration or respect (misstated as worshipping). That is too bad. (I'm not Catholic BTW).

If you follow Christian Talk Radio -- I don't but my wife does -- you learn that some of the strongest support for the Shroud's authenticity is in the Evangelical conservative movement. I think of Evangelical Scholars like Gary Haberstam and conservative preachers like Ken Stevenson. There is also a strong movement of acceptance among the Anglican and Orthodox traditions. The strongest arguments against the Shroud come now from Jesus Seminar scholars, many of whom deny that Jesus was even buried. And then there are a few, quite difficult to comprehend, critics in this forum who just spew out confusing charges.

A Christian whose faith is enduring and strong should never fear the pursuit of historical or scientific inquiry. Faith can be true. Faith can be strong.

Shroudie

[RaceBannon]

Yes, you were fooled

Just what you think you saw, I dont know, but you didnt see Jesus.

[the OlLine Rebel]

Zing! (Good 1)

[Revelation 911]

Just what you think you saw, I dont know, but you didnt see Jesus.

so you "dont know" but still profess to know that I didnt see Jesus

has this problem been occurring long ?

Doublemindedness can be a problem - read James

[A.A. Cunningham]

I NEVER said the RCC is the Whore of Babylon because I dont believe it is.

The Anti-Christ will, after he is resurrected by the power of Satan after his death in the middle of the tribulation, will demand that he alone is worshipped. The people of the Earth are already sick of religion and bitter infighting, factions, sects and denominations. Yet, this WHORE will be in power, it will be hated. Only one religion today has the organization that could een begin to control/lead/unify all religions of the world, and that is Roman Catholicism.

Something will cause the world to hate this WHORE, this false religous belief. Because of the immense power of the Catholic Church, their organization, their connections, I believe they will be the organizational head of this world religious belief which contains ALL religions, Protestant, Catholic, Islamic, Shinto, Buddhist, whatever. After all, all religions tach the same things, right?

10 posted on 05/26/2003 6:08:20 PM PDT by RaceBannon

Nice try at being coy Race but no cigar. You sound like Slick Willie trying to parse the definition of 'is'.

I'll bet those 4th Battalion DIs on the Island used to call you "s***bird" quite a bit.

[missyme]

Yes, this does look like it could be Jesus!

[AnAmericanMother]

It's o.k. that we disagree. I think this is precisely one of those issues "where reasonable minds can differ."

Although I don't see how Clement's bulls in support of exposition can be apolitical while his caveat can be dismissed as 'political' . . . my impression of Clement VII is that he was WHOLLY political! He was in a precarious position in Avignon. The convolution of the church with the nobility and the infighting amongst the various factions of the nobility certainly makes for interesting reading . . . but it also most certainly obscures the truth.

[polemikos]

THERE IS NO MEDIATOR BETWEEN CHRIST AND THE SINNER OR SAINT.

"Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." -- 1 Tim 4:13

Saving yourself?
Saving others?

"If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them." -- Rom 11:13-14>

Imitate Paul?
Paul saves?

"For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife? " -- 1 Cor 7:16

Husband and wife saving each other?

"To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men , that I might by all means save some." -- 1 Cor 9:22

Paul saves?

"By loyalty and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the LORD a man avoids evil. -- Prv 16:6

Our love atones for sin?

"let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." -- James 5:20

Anybody can save their own soul?

Oh dear. I better chuck all those books except the Gospel of Paul.

But wait!:
"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." -- 1 Tim 2:1-4

If I read 1 Tim 2:5 in context, I see that the intercessions offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something that infringes on Christ’s mediatorship. And as such, reading 1 Tim 2:5 in isolation restricts God's plan for us.

[the OlLine Rebel]

For all who have quoted this

"Difficult, but not impossible"

- this is from the *article*, not RaceB.

[NYer]

[Campion]

The Catholic Church condemns talkng to Spirits of the dead, right?

Oh, I forgot, unless they are spits of DEAD saints or Jesus or the DEAD Mary....

What kind of Christianity lumps Jesus in with "spirits of the dead"?

[the OlLine Rebel]

This is actually a reply to several posts:

If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

Race, please note the condition here: “saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them”

These people here did not say to check out other gods.

would have been reeking with stench from the blood and covered with maggots from the blood on the cloth, and the flies that would be around the dried blood. The flies and maggots would have been feeding off the cloth from Jesus blood, eating the cloth itself, chewing the fibers. And if they washed the cloth, all those blood stains would have disappeared from the washing!

Why would it reek from blood, and how would blood wash out? Haven’t you ever had blood on anything? Blood doesn’t smell much (to us), and it is hellacious to get out of ANYTHING, esp. once you've let it set in a few hours. Why would maggots be there necessarily? Much less able to obviously damage a cloth only so abused 2 days before?

These people are not WORSHIPPING a cloth; they merely cherish it as something directly in touch w/their Lord. Besides, idolatry involves actually making a false god to worship. See the Moses/Exodus story. Having a picture of what you think is Jesus doesn’t mean that it is an idol.

So, why are there blood stains on the cloth then?

Blood is from the scourging, which did indeed happen due to men. He’s referring, rightfully so, to your assumption that maggots would be allowed to even eat away at the Lord. Which I would question too, but still – how much difference are maggots going to make on a cloth in a couple days, anyway? Assuming they’d even get there rite away in a presumably well-cared-for, high-end tomb w/raised resting place of stone, at least?

[polemikos]

ADORATION WILL NOT BRING YOU SALVATION!

"We do not worship, we do not adore, for fear that we should bow down to the creature rather than to the creator, but we venerate the relics of the martyrs in order the better to adore him whose martyrs they are" -- Saint Jerome, Ad Riparium, i, P.L., XXII, 907

If you need some help understanding the difference between worship/adoration and veneration/honor just let me know. I'll be happy to explain.

[Revelation 911]

Race:I NEVER said the RCC is the Whore of Babylon because I dont believe it is.

AAC:http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/918111/posts?page=10#10

Rev:Bwahahahaha........priceless......bwahaha

[missyme]

Great Pic's and it was really nice to see my name on it too.
Susanne

[polemikos]

Clearly, God stopped speaking through Prophets and visions and Dreams on the times of Jesus Christ, with the final , finished time of this beginning at Pentacost, and ending when the Church stopped having the signs and miracles gifts that ended before the fall of Jerusalem.

Your quotation of Heb 1:1-2 does not support your assertion.

If you need help understanding the difference between public revelation and private revelation, just let me know.

[netmilsmom]

Until Mr. Peabody and his boy Sherman get the Wayback Machine going, we can't prove that it was the Shroud of Christ anyway.

I'll go with Faith and Inspiration everytime.

[netmilsmom]

>>These people are not WORSHIPPING a cloth; they merely cherish it as something directly in touch w/their Lord.<<

My FRiend, this line is poetry!
This is the same reason why I keep my parents wedding rings. Not the cash value, but because they were theirs.

[Swordmaker]

DO we have any reference of what people looked like when it comes to Age in Jesus's Day, would they have had a white beard in there early 30's? or does that play any part, although I know the Jesus we have seen in pictures and films is young and angelique looking, the picture of Jesus on the shroud apperas to be a man in his 70's or 80's by the features.

Since the Shroud is not a true photograph but rather more akin to a topographical mapping of the body (although inexplicably, it contains subcutaneous information as well as surface information), along with non-image blood stains, there is no color information encoded in the Shroud. The hair is not "white" it is merely closer to the Shroud than the background.

Forensic Pathologists and Anthropologists have examined the image and concluded that it is a man in the prime of life.