Replies

> So, for fraud, we probably need a means of applying gaseous amines.

You assume no fading over the centuries, or that only this one means of production is possible.

> Keep in mind that the images are extraordinarily faint.

...*today.*

> We need to insert pollen from the middle east. We need to apply travertine aragonite.

Easily done if this was done in the middle east, or if the shroud was from there.

> We’ll need a human being for this as there is no way to paint blood clots and serum separation.

Ah, there's a problem... you'll need a human of extraordinary proportions... and extra physical dimensions, as the image on the shroud does not actually reflect realistic human geometry. And in any event... blood isn't exactly rare, especially in an era when "cure for *anything*" meant "leaches and bleeding out the bad humours."

> We’ll need to get access to the Sudarium from the Cathedral in Oviedo ...

Possible, if the thing was on display. And has the Sudarium been C-14 dated? But then, I did a Google on the Sudarium... found lots of claims that the bloodstains match up, but no actual evidence.

But this is an interesting side-topic... either the shroud and the smaller cloth have staisn that are identical, or they don't. If they don;t, then they can be reasonably determiend to be unrelated. If they *do*, then carbon dating the Sudarium will tell you the age of the shroud, yes?

> then carbon dating the Sudarium will tell you the age of the shroud, yes?

A P.S. Been trying to find reports of carbon dating of the Sudarium. The only one yet is from:
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=3953

"Similarly, carbon-testing on the Sudarium sets its origin in the seventh century, but those who contend it is older say the test results were distorted by the effects of a terrorist bombing inside the cathedral in 1934."

Well.

OBB, you wrote: "You assume no fading over the centuries, or that only this one means of production is possible."

I make no such assumption. Amine/saccharide products will darken with age. As you are aware amine/saccharide reactions are irreversible. Over time they will darken. They cannot be bleached (and they will not fade) but can be reduced with diimide. It is, however, fair to say that the background is darkening as well and the relative contrast is thus reduced. What I was really asking you about is your fraud explanation that meets minimum criteria so we can move forward to the point of considering your fraud/miracle dichotomy. You said I am only considering one possibility. No, actually I am not. I am asking how the amine/saccharides product was produced by fraud.

As for the Sudarium carbon dating: I have heard about it anecdotally and heard that there is no validity to it. I am always suspect of a single web based source that lacks any citations. I need to do some research to get back to you on this and the web is not the place to do it. I have sent several emails and faxes to researchers to get an answer.

The question again is this. You imply fraud. If you are to be considered seriously, you must present your fraud explanation.

Ah, there's a problem... you'll need a human of extraordinary proportions... and extra physical dimensions, as the image on the shroud does not actually reflect realistic human geometry.

To what source do you attribute this claim, Orion? Please provide the citation. I doubt you will find any specificity provided by anyone expert enough to have an opinion.

In other words, this is just another one of your "factoids" that is untrue.

I have seen some claims of "extraordinary proportions" and "not reflecting realistic human geometry," usually unsourced, or attributed to non-expert sources as a means of "debunking" the shroud. Might I suggest some experts instead of the non-experts? Try this link to a peer-reviewed paper on the proportions of the man on the Shroud: Computerized Anthropometric Analysis of the Man of the Turin Shroud by Prof. ssa Emanuela Marinelli- Co-authored with Alessandro Cagnazzo and Prof. Giulio Fanti.

I would also suggest that the many medical doctors, anthropologists, and Forensic Pathologists who have examined the Shroud image have not found the image exhibited any unusual proportions or unrealistic human geometry. Pathologists such as Robert Bucklin, M.D., J.D., a world renowned forensic pathologist and medical examiner, formerly Deputy Coronor of Los Angeles and Las Vegas, or Frederick T. Zugibe, M.D., Ph.D., professor of anatomy and the Senior Medical Examiner of Rockland County, New York., or Forensic Anthropologist Dr. Emily A. Craig of the Kentucky State Medical Examiner's Office, who is an expert professional medical illustrator with national and international awards, would have noticed such "extraordinary proportions" and "non-human geometry." They have not.

I would also point out that experimental placement of cloths on supine bodies, both living and dead, with position markers placed on body parts, have resulted in exactly the placement of the body parts we find on the Shroud.

> We need to insert pollen from the middle east. We need to apply travertine aragonite.
Easily done if this was done in the middle east, or if the shroud was from there.

Assuming this is a fraud, Orion, what are the odds that even a cloth from the middle east (a very large area) would have pollen from the Jerusalem area and traces of a specific type of travertine aragonite limestone that is found only in a few square miles around Jerusalem... and is the type of limestone found in both the traditional site Tomb and the Garden Tomb?

. . . either the shroud and the smaller cloth have staisn that are identical, or they don't.

The claim is not that they are "identical" but that the Sudarium stains display a "congruency" with stains in the same mapped areas of the head, and many have similar shapes or other uniques patterns. In fact, comparative studies of the two cloths have mapped over 125 points of congruence.

If they *do*, then carbon dating the Sudarium will tell you the age of the shroud, yes?

No, they will only have a putative date for the Sudarium. It may suggest an age for a related object, but it would not be definitive.