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Mary who?
Paraclete Forum ^ | October 2000 | T. A. McMahon

Posted on 03/24/2004 1:02:28 PM PST by HarleyD

A few months ago I was asked by Grizzly Adams Productions/PAX Television Network to appear in a documentary with the tentative title "The Mystery of Fatima." For those not familiar with the subject, it is claimed that in 1917, Mary, the mother of Jesus, appeared to three young shepherd children in the rugged hills a few miles west of Fatima, Portugal, giving them secret messages to be revealed at a later date. Growing up Catholic, I was very aware of the apparitions of Fatima, and like most of my Catholic grade-school friends, I had anxieties about what we perceived to be secrets too frightening to imagine.

The video production company was looking for a critic, and I reluctantly decided to be interviewed. My reluctance had to do with how things rarely turn out the way one would hope, especially when dealing with secular productions. Based upon the interview, the program (which I have yet to see) could well have me crying out with Job, "For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me" (3:25).

The appeal of Mary is a growing phenomenon which needs to be addressed biblically, having spread far beyond the traditional borders of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches. Mary, who has at least a thousand times more shrines dedicated to her than even her Son, is rapidly becoming the "queen of ecumenism," someone whom diverse religions can honor, rally around, and even worship without offending their respective theologies. The Los Angeles Times reported that "A growing number of Americans from all Christian denominations are reaching out to the Virgin Mary as a comforting conduit of spirituality and a symbol of peace in troubled times. ...It's not just Catholics who are interested in Mary and following the apparitions...." 1

Surprisingly, apparitions of Mary even appear in Islamic countries, where multitudes of Muslims turn out to honor her. For example, in the late 1960s thousands witnessed "a lady composed of light" who was holding a baby as she seemed to be moving across the roof of a Coptic Orthodox church on the outskirts of Cairo, Egypt. "Several nights each week, thousands of Muslims fell to their knees on prayer rugs spread wherever space permitted, and wept before the magnificent, wondrous, glorious form of Our Lady from Heaven.'" 2 While such a reaction may seem puzzling to western Christians, there is a substantial basis for it. An entire chapter (Maryam) in the Qur'an and numerous other verses therein, as well as hundreds of hadiths, pay homage to Mary, the mother of Jesus. Islamic scholar Aliah Schleifer writes in her book Mary the Blessed Virgin of Islam that Mary is esteemed above the most revered women of the Muslim faith, including Muhammad's two favorite wives Khadija and Aisha, and his daughter Fatima. According to Schleifer, one hadith quotes Muhammad as saying he would take Mary as one of his wives in heaven: "The Messenger of God said, `God married me in Paradise to Mary....'" 3 Schleifer concludes,

From the perspective of the classical Muslim scholars, Mary, in the Qur'an and Sunna, is a symbol that brings together all revelation. As a descendant of the great Israelite prophets, the bearer of the word, the mother of Jesus, and as traditional Sunni Islam's chosen woman of the worlds, Mary is symbolic of the Qur'anic message that revelation has not been confined to one particular people. 4

In addition, the fact that an apparition claiming to be Mary appeared near a place named for Muhammad's favorite daughter has endeared millions of Muslims to "Our Lady of Fatima." In 1992 The Fatima Crusader reported that more than 500,000 followers of Islam turned out to honor a statue of the Fatima Mary in Bombay, India.

It would seem that at least some apparitions of Mary share the Muslim's respect for the Islamic faith. Our Lady of Medjugorje, who has made numerous appearances in the wartorn area of Bosnia and Herzegovina (where Roman Catholics, Muslims and Orthodox are killing one another), allegedly communicated to one of the visionaries, "Tell this priest, tell everyone, that it is you who are divided on earth. The Muslims and the Orthodox, for the same reason as Catholics, are equal before my Son and I [sic]. You are all my children."5 Catholic Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, popular television evangelist of the late '50s and early '60s, predicted that Mary would be the key to reconciling the faiths of Rome and Mecca.

Mary has played a key role in the conversion to Catholicism of some of that Church's leading apologists such as former Reformed theologian Tim Staples and Scott Hahn, a graduate of the evangelical Gordon-Conwell Seminary and former Presbyterian minister. Staples credits "the Lord and his Mother" with helping him convert to Romanism. He writes, "I had despised for so long the Catholic belief in Mary's intercession. But...I finally gave in to her loving call...." 6 For spiritual assistance in his conversion Hahn turned to praying the rosary, in which 153 of 170 prayers are offered to Mary. He writes in his conversion story, "I proceeded to pray [the rosary], and as I prayed I felt more in my heart what I came to know in my mind: I am a child of God. I don't just have God as my Father and Christ as my brother; I have His Mother for my own." 7 Franciscan University, where Hahn is a professor, is one of the foremost promoters of tours to the shrine of Our Lady of Medjugorje.

More and more Protestants are becoming attracted to Mary. The historic St. Thomas Episcopal Church in New York City prominently displays a statue of Our Lady of Fifth Avenue. The late John Cardinal O'Connor and Orthodox Archbishop Peter were on hand for its dedication in 1991. Charles Dickson wrote a popular little book in 1996 encouraging a reconsideration of Mary among evangelicals. In A Protestant Pastor Looks at Mary, he points out that Luther and Calvin were more agreeable toward Mary than later generations of their followers. Dickson quotes from a letter Luther wrote to the Duke of Saxony: "May the tender Mother of God herself procure for me the spirit of wisdom profitably and thoroughly to expound this song of hers." One enthusiastic Amazon.com reviewer writes, "[Dickson's] book is superb!....this book by a Protestant is the best book about the Holy Virgin I have read to date. This book made me cry and it made my spirit laugh. After reading this book, few people will be able to deny Mary's role in the lives of all Christians... [and] how the Rosary is for all Christians. ...This book also helps construct a bridge between Christian groups. It attempts to establish some much needed common ground (with lots of success). Will Protestants and Catholics ever be able to agree about Mary? Well, this book sure will help that happen!"

In response to the question, "Will Protestants and Catholics [or Muslims, for that matter] ever be able to agree about Mary?", a more basic question must be asked: "Mary who?"

The Mary of the Orthodox Church was sinless but not conceived immaculately. The Mary of Islam is confused with Miriam, sister of Moses and Aaron, whose father was Amram. She is not the Mother either of God or of the Son of God ("Allah has no son" _ Surah IV:171). The Mary of Catholicism was immaculately conceived, the Mother of God, a perpetual virgin, Mediatrix between God and man, and the Queen of Heaven.

Then there's the Mary of the Bible

For anyone who has an interest in learning the truth about Mary, the only trustworthy account is to be found in the Scriptures, where information is presented by those who knew her personally and, more importantly, whose writings were under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Fewer than 90 Bible verses address the life of Mary. In them we find a wonderfully humble servant of the Lord who rejoices in Him as her Savior (Lk 1:47). Obviously her heart was not "immaculate" nor was she conceived without sin because her Son, her Savior, came not for the sinless but "to seek and to save that which was lost" (Lk 19:10). The Catholic Church seems to be confused over this issue of Mary's sinlessness because it considers her to be the woman of Revelation 12, "clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars." This specific imagery is reflected on innumerable statues of Mary around the world. Yet the Bible says this woman gave birth in pain and travail (Rv 12:2), and pain and labor are part of God's judgment on sinners (Gn 3:15-16). So either the (recently beatified) "infallible" Pope Pius IX, who engineered her immaculate conception into Church dogma, was wrong about Mary's sinlessness, or the "infallible" Pope Pius XII and numerous other Catholic theologians were wrong about Mary being the "woman" of Revelation 12:1-2.

Mary's ministry was simply the birth and nurturing of the child Jesus. Once He reached adulthood, she played no influential part in His earthly service. It's at the wedding feast of Cana, which began the public ministry of Jesus, that her last words are recorded. Fittingly, she tells the servants, "Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it" (Jn 2:5). There is no doubt that she is exemplary among biblical saints as a model of obedience and submission to the will of God, especially in the appointment to which she was called. In keeping with the words of John the Baptist, "He must increase, but I must decrease" (Jn 3:30), Mary faded into the background.

Search the Scriptures as you will and you will find no leadership role for Mary among the Apostles. She taught no doctrine. We never hear of the Apostles seeking her out for counsel. Other than the gospels, Mary is mentioned only once in the New Testament, where the Book of Acts tells us of her simple participation in a prayer meeting along with her sons. The teaching that Mary was a perpetual virgin is also contradicted by many other verses (Mt 12:46; Mk 6:3; Jn 7:3,5; 1 Cor 9:5; Gal 1:19; Ps 69:8; etc.).

When you compare what the apparitions around the world say and do in claiming to be Mary, you get, to borrow a phrase, a Mary "quite contrary" to the one presented in Scripture. In subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways the apparitions are given to self-aggrandizement and self-promotion -all to the devaluation of Jesus-and their instructions are often antibiblical and anti-Christ. The "Mary" who spoke to Father Gobbi, the founder of the Marian Movement of more than 100,000 priests, declared, "Each of My statues is a sign of a presence of Mine and reminds you of your heavenly Mother. Therefore it must be honored and put in places of greater veneration...." 8

Consider Our Lady of Fatima: "Say the Rosary every day to obtain peace for the world....Pray, pray, a great deal, and make sacrifices for sinners, for many souls go to hell because they have no one to make sacrifices for them....God wishes to establish in the world the devotion to My immaculate heart. If people do what I tell you, many souls will be saved and there will be peace." 9

This is not the humble and submissive Mary of the Bible. The rosary invokes prayers to Mary ten times for every one for the Lord; Jesus is the Prince of Peace; only Christ's once-for-all sacrifice saves souls from hell; neither is Mary's heart immaculate, nor are we to be spiritually devoted to anyone other than our Lord and Savior. The Marian apparitions present a status for Mary which is without support or precedent in the Scriptures. The Apostle Peter, a contemporary of Mary and regarded by Catholics as the first pope, wrote nothing about her. The Apostle Paul, through the Holy Spirit, gave more specific instruction in living the Christian life than any other writer in the Bible, yet made no mention of the alleged importance of devotions or reparations to Mary. In contrast to the apparitional Mary who claims to have been "conceived without sin," Paul called himself "the chief of sinners," yet God made him the most productive figure of the New Testament after Christ. The Apostle John, who wrote the last book of the Bible and was given the care of Mary by Jesus himself, says nothing about venerating her.

The apparitions are clearly not the mother of Jesus, although they make every attempt to be perceived that way. Many appear as a young woman bearing an infant. So who's this child? Jesus was in His thirties when He returned triumphantly to His Father. Obviously, the apparitional Mary has the superior position in the relationship; what small child would not be obedient to his mother? Moreover, rather than as a helpless babe, the Bible exalts Jesus as the King of kings, Lord of lords, Creator of the universe, the glorified Son of God, God manifested in the flesh!

Apparitions are the primary source of many major Catholic liturgies, rituals, and dogmas. The Brown Scapular which "releases souls from purgatory" came from Our Lady of Mt. Carmel in 1251; in 1830 an apparition introduced the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception along with the Miraculous Medal; the Dominican Order claims its founder initiated the devotion of the rosary through the counsel of an apparition of Mary in the thirteenth century.

Although mankind is being drawn into every kind of spiritual deception in the last days before the return of Jesus, it is especially sad that the real mother of Jesus, the remarkable "handmaid of the Lord" (Lk 1:38), is so terribly misrepresented, thereby drawing millions away from her Son. In the Gospel of Luke (11:27-28) we find a well-meaning woman saying to Jesus concerning His mother, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!" Had the Mary we know from Scripture been present, we can be certain that she would have added a hearty amen to her Son's poignant response: "Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" May our obedience to God's Word be our passion.

Endnotes

1 L.A. Times, 12/25/98

2 Fatima Prophecy, Ray Stanford

3 Schleifer, Mary the Blessed Virgin of Islam, 64

4 Ibid, 100.

5 Medjugorje Day by Day, Richard Beyer, Ave Maria Press, 1993

6 Patrick Madrid, Surprised by Truth, Bascilica Press, 1994, 239-40

7 http://kutai.kinabalu.net/scotthahn.html#journey

8 Fr. Don Stefano Gobbi, To the Priests, Our Lady's Beloved Sons, 1998. 383

9 Our Lady of Fatima's Peace Plan from Heaven, Tan Books and Publishers, 1983, inside back cover

FROM: The Berean Call, October 2000 (http://www.thebereancall.org)


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS: anticatholictripe; fatima; poothatlooklikewords
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To: conservonator
You messd up with this:
" W/o Mary, there is no Jesus. "

This is much better:
" He chose to come in to this world in that way for a purpose."
21 posted on 03/24/2004 3:30:31 PM PST by dangus
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To: PetroniusMaximus
If you were sick would you ask for the doctor or the doctor's mother?

If you were sick, would you ask for the doctor, or would you ask as many mutual friends of yours and the doctor as you could think of to talk to the doctor for you, as well as talking to the doctor yourself?

I ask because that's what Paul did, and I'm wondering why you choose not to follow his example.

You see, your objection fits equally well as an objection to the practice of Christians asking other Christians on earth to pray for them. If we ought to "go straight to Jesus," then why did Paul ask other Christians to pray for him ... not once, but many times ... in the Bible?

The response to this is usually "but they weren't dead". That response betrays a profound lack of faith in the whole Gospel. The dead in Christ are with God, the source of all life, meaning that we are much more dead than they are. Indeed, if you believe in the reality of heaven, it makes far more sense to ask for the prayers of the saints who have fallen asleep, because they are perfectly united to God. Nobody on earth can make that claim, not the Pope, not the holiest Protestant pastor you can think of, nobody.

22 posted on 03/24/2004 3:49:50 PM PST by Campion
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To: HarleyD
Go here...
http://www.zeitun-eg.org/

To see film of Mary over the church in Egypt.
23 posted on 03/24/2004 3:51:43 PM PST by netmilsmom (God Bless Madison Lyn!)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
***Petronius, the day I see a doctor empty a bedpan!***

This Doctor washes his patients feet!


"Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going back to God, rose from supper. He laid aside his outer garments, and taking a towel, tied it around his waist. Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him."
24 posted on 03/24/2004 4:08:18 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: conservonator
"W/o Mary, there is no Jesus. He chose to come in to this world in that way for a purpose."


Who do you think loves you more, Jesus or Mary?

25 posted on 03/24/2004 4:09:11 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Who do you think loves you more, Jesus or Mary?

You mean the one who died for me (God who is love), or the one who gave her Son over to die for me, and today lives in perfect union with God who is love?

That's a silly question. The love of Jesus for me is perfect, because He is God. The love of Mary for me is perfect, because she is united to God in heaven, and God's love for me is perfect.

It's even sillier than saying, "Who loves you more, your mother or your father?"

26 posted on 03/24/2004 4:18:29 PM PST by Campion
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To: HarleyD
Jesus Becomes Incarnate by the Holy Spirit from the Virgin Mary

Luke 1:26-56 (RSV)

26: In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
27: to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28: And he came to her and said, "Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!"
29: But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be.
30: And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31: And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.
32: He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,
33: and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end."
34: And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?"
35: And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.
36: And behold, your kinswoman Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren.
37: For with God nothing will be impossible."
38: And Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word." And the angel departed from her.
39: In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah,
40: and she entered the house of Zechari'ah and greeted Elizabeth.
41: And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit
42: and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
43: And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44: For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.
45: And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord."
46: And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord,
47: and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48: for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
49: for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.
50: And his mercy is on those who fear him from generation to generation.
51: He has shown strength with his arm, he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts,
52: he has put down the mighty from their thrones, and exalted those of low degree;
53: he has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent empty away.
54: He has helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy,
55: as he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his posterity for ever."
56: And Mary remained with her about three months, and returned to her home.

27 posted on 03/24/2004 4:48:50 PM PST by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed. Pray for our own souls to receive the grace of a happy)
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To: Campion
***The response to this is usually "but they weren't dead". That response betrays a profound lack of faith in the whole Gospel. The dead in Christ are with God, the source of all life, meaning that we are much more dead than they are. ***


If this was the case then why didn't the rich man ask Lazarus and Abraham to pray for his brothers? Or why didn't Lazarus and Abraham even OFFER to pray for them?

These people are dead! "For as the body without the spirit is dead"

You are calling on spirits!

***then why did Paul ask other Christians to pray for him ... not once, but many times ... in the Bible?***

In the verses you reference all the people were alive and they could hear each other when they asked for prayer.


***it makes far more sense to ask for the prayers of the saints who have fallen asleep, because they are perfectly united to God.***

Indeed, it would make sense IF WE WERE COMMANDED TO DO IT! But we are not, NOT ONE TIME in the NT are we told to talk to the dead and ask them to pray for us.

If you need a mediator - someone to go to God for you, please!!! look to Jesus.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

The Bible says the Holy Spirit intercedes for us...
"but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express" and "because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will."

And Jesus intercedes...
"because Jesus lives forever... Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them."



28 posted on 03/24/2004 5:00:22 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Campion
***That's a silly question. The love of Jesus for me is perfect, because He is God. The love of Mary for me is perfect, because she is united to God in heaven***


It is not a silly question. You are making Mary equal with God and that is blasphemy.


***It's even sillier than saying, "Who loves you more, your mother or your father?"***

We have a Father God, there is no Mother God!

Jesus didn't come to proclaim Father and Mother Gods.


Can't you see that there is an infinite difference between Jesus love for you and Mary?
29 posted on 03/24/2004 5:09:43 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Campion
***The love of Mary for me is perfect, because she is united to God in heaven, and God's love for me is perfect.***

Is not every believer now in heaven also united to God and by your logic posessing love equal to Mary???
30 posted on 03/24/2004 5:25:09 PM PST by drstevej
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To: dangus
***Did not the converts in Acts constantly ask the disciples to pray for them?***


Yes, yes while they were alive.

Can you give me one example in the NT of a person asking a dead saint to pray for them?

31 posted on 03/24/2004 5:31:05 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: dangus; All
My intent was not to get into another discussion of praying to Mary or not. I think we’ve hashed this out enough on other threads recently.

I was interested in what Fatima was since it was being talked about on another thread and I did not have a clue as to what you RCC’ers were talking about. I posted it for informational purposes only as I was heading out the door. I will say this article intrigued me because of all the various religions and denominations that the worship of Mary has spread to under Fatima.

Also, it is obvious from reading your other posts that, at least the conservatives, don’t buy into this Fatima. However, it seems like the liberals Protestants, Catholics, Hindus, Muslins, etc do. I’m curious as to what extent this has infiltrated the various churches. I still can’t figure out if the Pope supports this or not.

I know this article is from a Protestant’s perspective and you RCC’ers are very sensitive whenever a Protestant mentions anything about the Catholics. In some cases you have legitimate concerns. But even in some Protestant articles I’m sure you can glean at least some insight.

This was NOT intended as a cheap shot against Catholics. If you took it that way then I’m sorry.

However, dangus, if I see one more sola scriptura/sola faith article or conversion story on how I was a stupid Protestant and now I’m a blessed Catholic, there are no guarantees. :O)

JUST KIDDING!!!
32 posted on 03/24/2004 5:38:44 PM PST by HarleyD (READ Your Bible-STUDY to show yourself approved)
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To: TotusTuus
He fails to see the implications of the belief that divinity became incarnate, the Word taking its flesh from her. What other human being has ever been so full of grace?
33 posted on 03/24/2004 7:28:39 PM PST by RobbyS (Latin nothing of atonment)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
If a person is with God, then he.she is not dead. Unless you adhere to the notion that we remain dead until the General Resurrection. But that is simply a matter of opinion.
34 posted on 03/24/2004 7:33:00 PM PST by RobbyS (Latin nothing of atonment)
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To: RobbyS
***If a person is with God, then he/she is not dead***

St. James says, "For as the body without the spirit is dead"



***Unless you adhere to the notion that we remain dead until the General Resurrection.***

I believe that theory is called "Soul Sleep" and I don't believe it because St. Paul says...

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."



So I would say that the Bible teaches that a Christian's body can be dead (without a spirit) but their spirit will still be alive and in the Lord's presence.
35 posted on 03/24/2004 7:53:16 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus
We call the people who live in the presence of God, saints, and we remain in communion with these holy spirits. We believe they act as God's agents, by providing a familar "face"and name to us on earth.
36 posted on 03/24/2004 8:07:30 PM PST by RobbyS (Latin nothing of atonment)
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To: Campion
The response to this is usually "but they weren't dead". That response betrays a profound lack of faith in the whole Gospel. The dead in Christ are with God, the source of all life, meaning that we are much more dead than they are.

So then, Samuel was less dead than Saul. Was attempting to contact the more alive Samuel licit or illicit?

37 posted on 03/24/2004 8:59:44 PM PST by A.J.Armitage (http://calvinist-libertarians.blogspot.com/)
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To: HarleyD
"The rosary invokes prayers to Mary ten times for every one for the Lord"

What a shallow take.

The ten Ave Marias in each decade serve more as a timer than anything else.

Back in the days before wristwatches, a "paternosterwhile" was an informal unit of time--the time it takes to say a Pater Noster.

In each decade of the Rosary we are to contemplate a particular mystery--the Nativity, the Resurrection, the Presentation, the Agony in the Garden, the Crowning With Thorns, et cetera--for the time it takes to say ten Ave Marias. But when we get back to the Gloria Patri and the Pater Noster, we are praying those with our full attention, not while meditating on a mystery.

And in the final prayer of the Rosary, the Salve Regina, what is Mary called? Advocata nostra, our Advocate. What do we ask her to do? et Iesum...nobis...ostende. Show us (or perhaps conduct us to?) Jesus. ]

And in the final two lines?

Ora pro nobis -- pray for us --
digni efficiamur promissionibus Christi -- that we may become worthy of the promises of Christ.

All Marian roads lead to Jesus.
38 posted on 03/24/2004 9:01:37 PM PST by dsc
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To: RobbyS
***We call the people who live in the presence of God, saints, and we remain in communion with these holy spirits. We believe they act as God's agents, by providing a familar "face"and name to us on earth.***

Can you give me a verse that I can go to in the NT which shows a believer calling on a departed saint, angel or departed fellow Christian with the purpose of having them pray for that believer?
39 posted on 03/24/2004 9:13:50 PM PST by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Sorry, but I do not regard that as a proper test. Nothing in Scripture contradicts the notion that Charity does not end with the grave. Will your mother forget you when she dies? Maccabees, of course, shows that some Jews offered prayers for the dead, so the idea of no commerce between living and dead is simply a Protestant dogma. Yes, I know that you don't regard Maccabees as Scripture, but that was also a partisan position.
40 posted on 03/24/2004 9:56:40 PM PST by RobbyS (Latin nothing of atonment)
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