Vanity -- What is Catholic Belief as to Just War Theory?

none ^ | March 23, 2004 | self

[Piranha]

What I am getting out of this thread is that under Catholic doctrine:

(a) in theory, the doctrine of Just War as expounded by St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, and in the Catechism, is part of official Church doctrine, but in actuality never applied for the reasons discussed below;
(b) the Pope is infallable in regard to faith and morals;
(c) a declaration that a war is or is not just does not fall under either of those categories and so is not a matter for Papal infallability;
(d) notwithstanding the doctrine of Just War in (a) above, the Vatican prefers peace over war to such an extent that it will invariably condemn any war, no matter over what provocation (property, human rights, etc.); and
(e) possibly because the statements described in (d) do not carry infallability, Catholics are not prohibited from serving in wars that have been condemned by the Vatican.

With all respect, if the above is an accurate representation of what Catholicism mandates, I don't understand why the Pope would bother to condemn any war, particularly where it is not a religious war between Catholics. If 100% of the time he is going to say that the war is bad, then why should anyone -- especially one who believes that the war is justified -- pay any attention to the statement as a well-thought-out analysis? I really do mean this with respect; I am just confounded by the limitations on the Pope's ability to judge a war against an horrific enemy on its own terms.

[Piranha]

I forgot to include you on my post no. 41.

Thank you all for helping me understand this issue.

[ArrogantBustard]

I think your statements are accurate ... I also think that the Pope(s) believe it important to remind the world that even when war is necessary or justifiable, it is not an unqualified good.

Example: Destroying the National Socialist government of Germany in the 1930s and '40s was necessary. Likewise the Imperial Japanese government. But WWII was far from unqualified good. Aside from the massive destruction of innocent civilians, one outcome of that war was the ascendancy of the USSR and PRC, which were (are) every bit as evil as the Nazis and Imperial Japanese. The Pope(s) recognized the evil international communism when it was politically incorrect to do so.

[ArrogantBustard]

It implored the participants re-think their actions, and it gave the opinion that war would not solve the Middle East's problems

In particular, the Pope reminded Saddam Hussein that it was his responsibility to comply with his treaty obligation and avoid war. Saddam didn't listen, and look where it got him.

[B Knotts]

Regarding (b), papal infallibility only comes into play when all three of these prerequisites are met:

1. He is speaking on a matter of faith or morals
2. He is speaking to the entire Church
3. He is intentionally invoking his ability to teach infallibly

Generally speaking, one or more of these is not met in all statements made by the pope, since 1950 (the last time papal infallibility was definitely invoked), anyhow.

[B Knotts]

Incidentally, the Pope did not oppose the action in Afghanistan. He merely said that it needed to remain focused towards the proper ends: stopping the terrorists.

Pope on Terrorism: Fight and Forgive

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

December 12, 2001

Vatican City - Pope John Paul II endorsed yesterday the view that countries have the moral and legal right to defend themselves against terrorism, but said forgiveness is also needed for true peace to take root in the world.

The comments, the pope's strongest on the principle of "just wars" since Sept. 11, were contained in his annual peace message, which will be delivered Jan. 1. The Vatican released the message yesterday, three months after the terrorist attacks in the United States.

To mark the date, American Cardinal Edmond Szoka celebrated a special Vatican Mass that began at 2:46 p.m., the time locally when the first hijacked plane slammed into the World Trade Center in New York City.

...

The pope endorsed the right to defend against terrorism but emphasized that the fight must be limited to the terrorists themselves and not expanded to cover entire nations, ethnic groups or religions.

"It is a right which, like every other one, must respond to moral and legal rules in the choice of both objectives and means," he said.

[bobjam]

"Tyrrant"? I would hardly use language that belongs to animals such as Hitler, Stalin and Hussein to describe Pope John Paul II.

[johnb2004]

Disgusting. Washing after voiding is not being a germ freak. Do you flush? Is that handle clean?

[dangus]

Some edits:
(b) the Pope is infallible in regard to faith in morals when speaking from the throne of St. Peter, representing the entirety of the Church.
(c) (deleted, since it need not be states given edits to (b))
(d) (deleted, since it not demonstrably true.)
(e) In general, Catholics are to obey their legitimate civil authorities as to when the conditions of just war exist. This is part of just war theory, as are several exemptions.

>>If 100% of the time he is going to say that the war is bad,<<

Consider this statement by the Archbishop of Baghdad: "War is always evil, but doing nothing in the face of atrocities is a greater evil."

War is always evil? Does that mean we should never fight a war? No! But we should recognize that war is the gravely regrettable, last action when we have failed to prevent war by nobler means. We neglected the middle east, propped up and tolerated wicked leaders, ignored the need for evangelization, failed at prayer, engaged in reckless and schizophranic diplomacy (under Bush 41 and Clinton), fomented enemies and then turned our back to them, forged unjust alliances with brutal despots. Should we now, after all our sins and failures, abandon the responsibility we have brought upon ourselves in the name of pacificism? The Pope did not say this.

To the contrary, in the same letter that the Left thrust forth as his opposition to war, the Pope emphasized, "If you want peace, you must end abortion"
!
(I am paraphrasing from memory.)

[presidio9]

Do you flush? Is that handle clean?

In my own house? I would hope so. Did you know that a certain level of exposure to germs is actually beneficial to our immune systems?

[dangus]

My apologies, I meant "despot," not "tyrrant." Despots, the intended reference was to "benevolent, absolute despot," a phrase used to describe the (nominally) Catholic French kings, who assumed all power over their subjects.

[Inyokern]

I should add that the washing I am discussing involves pouring water on one's hands from an unlipped vessel (i.e., a cup without a pouring spout) and saying a blessing over washing the hands.

The washing of hands is ritualistic. That is because it was instructed by the Lord at Mt. Sinai. The Jews were not told why it was necessary to wash their hands, only that it was required.

This is similar to a parent instructing a small child to brush his teeth every day. The child is not capable of understanding about plaque and tooth decay, he only knows that he is required to do this. To a small child, brushing his teeth is essentially a ritual.

[Piranha]

Very interesting. I wonder why he was unable to make a similar statement about defending from terrorism in the case of Israel's elimination of a leading Hamas terrorist. Again, this is not a sarcastic question, but a sincere inquiry as to whether there is a religious distinction between the circumstance of the US fighting back after the bombing of the World Trade Center and Israel fighting back after the accumulation of bombings that it suffered at the hands of Hamas.

[Piranha]

As B Knotts pointed out in Post 46, at least once in this century the Pope approved fighting terrorists, so long as the fight is not waged against an entire nation. (This is not a direct quotation, but a paraphrase from an AP story.) I wonder why he could not have said the same thing about Israel's fight against Hamas, given that Israel is working so hard to enable the average Palestinian (Yusuf Lunchbucket) to continue to pass through checkpoints to work in Israel -- and so many terrorist attacks are at the checkpoints themselves.

[ELCore]

The teaching in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is infallible.

[ELCore]

Also, Fr. Harrison argues at length, and quite convincingly, that the teaching in Humanae Vitae is also infallible because ex cathedra.

[B Knotts]

Oops. That's right. Forgot about that one.