Vanity -- What is Catholic Belief as to Just War Theory?

none ^ | March 23, 2004 | self

[Piranha]

On a thread regarding Vatican condemnation of Israel's killing of the terrorist Yassin, a poster wrote that "Just War Theory is not 'Church Doctrine.' The Church can never endorse violent action."

I am not Catholic but am surprised to hear that St. Augustine's and St. Thomas Aquinas' theories about when it is proper to wage war have no theological standing.

So, I am putting the question to any interested Catholics on this thread: Is Just War Theory, as developed by St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, official Church doctrine (e.g., Christ's teachings), or are Christ's teachings limited to remaining within the four corners of pacifism?

Thank you.

[ArrogantBustard]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church addresses the matter of killing generally in Article Five. One specific passage referring to warfare is as follows:

2265: Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

While not a full blown treatment of Just War doctrine/theory, it certainly seems to me to absolutely rule out the hard-core pacifist position.

[Piranha]

Thank you. Someone else referred me to 2307-2317, which are on your link.

[bobjam]

St Augustine wrote that war is justified in order to prevent injustice (such as World War II). Although this may be the "official" Catholic position, it is not the real Catholic position. In reality, the Catholic Church is pacifist. Because the Vatican opposed the war to remove Hussein and his thugs on the grounds that it was not justified, then I don't see on what grounds war could ever be justified.

The Vatican's response to the death of that hamas leader is alarming at best.

[ArrogantBustard]

I would note that the author of, for example, "2309 :The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition" is not well versed in modern warfare. The author of that passage seems to think in terms of multi-megaton nuclear bombs, rather than JDAMs. I would say that the precision and limited power of modern means of destruction also weigh very heavily in evaluating this condition.

[johnb2004]

In reality, the Catholic Church is pacifist.

I believe that is incorrect.

This is from an above post regarding the CCC: "The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility."

[dangus]

It is called theory because it is that: theory. It does represent the mainstream of Catholic thought. I suppose when you were told it was not Catholic doctrine, the poster meant that it is not infallible. Infallibility exists when one of two conditions are met:

1. Conciliar Infallibility. When all the Catholic bishops of the world are invited to confer over a doctrine, and they concur that the doctrine is true.

2. Papal Infallibility. On very rare occassions, the Pope has discerned that there has been a consensus throughout history, he can speak on behalf of the church and declare that a doctrine is true.

In reality, Conciliar Infallibility is really in essence another expression of Papal infallibility, since it is the Pope who determines that the conditions have been met to assert that concensus is reached.

On the other hand, Papal Infallibility is not much different from Conciliar Infallibility. The Pope has no authority to proclaim his opinion as doctrine. On the rare istnaces when the Pope has invoked infallibility, he has asserted that there has been a concensus. In essence, there is no need to call a council to reach a concensus.

[Piranha]

Thank you. That is an interesting post.

Actually, the poster separately addressed Papal infallability and agreed with my surmise that this doctrine does not extend to geopolitical situations (e.g., condemning Israel for killing Yassin).

[dangus]

Bobjam confuses the man with the Church. I would agree that the Pope has some strong pacifistic tendencies, and certainly that his foreign-poicy apparatus is dominated by French hippies. Unfortunately, the Pope only represents the church when offering sacraments (as do all priests), or when speaking from the throne of Saint Peter. Other than that, it is no more ture to assert that the Church is pacifist than it was true in the 1990s to assert that the United States thought it was a good idea to bomb aspirin factories to divert public attention from sex scandals.

Unless I am mixing people up, Bobjam is decidedly not Catholic, and is certainly not a reliable source as to what the RCC believes.

[johnb2004]

What about infallibility from the ordinary magisterium? Humanae Vitae is said to be never called infallible, yet many say it is infallible by the ordinary teaching of the Church. The 10 commandments have never been defined as infallible in the ways you listed.

[dangus]

That is correct. Infallibility only extends to doctrine, and not to civil governance. Hence, it is the civil authorities' prerogative to declare when the conditions for just war are met. The Cardinal who asserted that the US was in the war only for oil was not only a fool, but also a rank and vile heretic, guilty of abusing his authority and bringing scandal unto the Church. He was quickly replaced, but his replacement probably had more to do with his age than his contemptible conduct of office.

[Inyokern]

"The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility."

This is very much in line with the position of the Pharisees.

It is amusing to me that, in the few cases where Jesus deviated from the ideology of the Pharisees, such as "Ye shall not resist evil," the necessity of washing one's hands before eating, prohibition of divorce, etc, most Christians today follow the Pharisee position rather than that of Jesus.

[presidio9]

This thread is in response to one of my posts. Piranah misunderstood me. I do not dispute that the teachings of Aquinas and Augustine concerning just cause to make war are accepted by the Catholic Church. What I disagree with is the overempahsis that non-Catholics tend to put on Just War Theory, as if it is somehow central to Christian Doctrine, and the Pope is somehow being hypocrital when he speaks against military actions that you (and I, by the way) support. The primary Catholic Doctrine concerning war is that peaceful solutions are always preferrable. You will never hear the Pope or the Vatican come out and say that a war was positive. That would be contrary to the Pope's role as spiritual sheppard to the world's 1 billion Catholics, who live under a variety of political systems. Unless you understand this, you are not equipped to examine Just War Theory in terms of how it relates to Catholic philosophy.

[dangus]

The 10 commandments are scripture. Pardon me, but I thought it obvious scripture was infallible.

Humanae Vitae was not an infallible expression, true. BUT it HAS been expressed infallibly that abortion is always a grave sin. Pope John Paul II affirmed that, in response to bishops' seeking greater clarity, he wrote to every bishop on Earth, compelling them to offer their insights on the issue. He then judged that it is the unanimous verdict of every bishop on Earth that abortion is a grave evil, and he discerened that this unanimity has existed throughout the history of the church.

As for other portions of Humane Vitae: the fact that a moral teaching has not been declared infallibly does not mean that Catholics are not obliged to obey the teaching. Christ did grant the Church temporal authority. It is this temporal authority that has compelled Christians to attend daily mass, and holy days of obligation, to abstain during Lent, and which has governed the administration of the sacraments. Also, sin IS sin regardless of whether the Church has specifically proclaimed it such. Birth control is a sin for Protestants, whether they recognize the fact or not, and it was a sin for Catholics before Humanae Vitae. The sinfulness was no less, only the culpability.

[Pyro7480]

It is amusing to me that, in the few cases where Jesus deviated from the ideology of the Pharisees, such as "Ye shall not resist evil," the necessity of washing one's hands before eating, prohibition of divorce, etc, most Christians today follow the Pharisee position rather than that of Jesus.

Pardon me? The Catholic Church has traditionally stood against divorce. "Ye shall not resist evil?" Does that mean the Catholic Church and the charismatic churches have to get rid of their exorcists? Please clarify.

[netmilsmom]

But, but, but...
Catholics are not Christians and we strangle babies with rosary beads then drink their blood. /sarcasm off/

[Inyokern]

Pardon me? The Catholic Church has traditionally stood against divorce.

True, the Catholic Church still stands against divorce, but even most Catholic countries now allow it.

"Ye shall not resist evil?" Does that mean the Catholic Church and the charismatic churches have to get rid of their exorcists? Please clarify.

No, it had nothing to do with excorcists. Jesus himself was an exorcist. It had to do with turning the other cheek against aggressors. Jesus said turn the other cheek, the Pharisees said no.

Regarding exorcism, the Pharisees believed that eating with dirty hands could cause disease. Jesus disagreed, believing that disease was caused by demons inhabiting the body. Most people now see the truth of the Pharisee position.

[Pyro7480]

Jesus was talking about spiritual sickness. "Wash the inside of the cup, so that the outside may become clean as well."

[presidio9]

As far as I know, there is only one Catholic country, it its citizens have mostly taken a vow of chastity.

[saradippity]

I think it's important to repeat the that Lumen Gentium,the Catholic Catechism and Ad Tuendum Fidem all clarify that Peter can speak alone and that the Bishops are under the Pope and can never proclaim without him.

My comment is beside the point in this discussion of Just War theory,but it needs to be restated in "chats" where comments could be constsrued by others to mean something different regards who speaks for the Church in matters of faith and morals and dogma and doctrine.