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New rules on the Holy Eucharist on Holy Thursday
Catholic Herald ^ | 03/15/2004 | Luke Coppen

Posted on 03/15/2004 11:54:15 AM PST by lrslattery

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To: don-o
My 38 is not a flame, nor an invitation to a debate. The East West division is just plain bad all the way around. But, I cannot see unity returning short of serious persecution.
41 posted on 03/15/2004 3:24:48 PM PST by don-o
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To: heyheyhey
>>>It is also likely to challenge the view that the Second Vatican Council gave local bishops the authority to adapt the liturgy.

And where exactly is it in the docs of the Second Vatican Council?

Right here: (Sacrosanctum Concilium)

30. To promote active participation, the people should be encouraged to take part by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons, and songs, as well as by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes.
And here:
36. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used;
And here:
37. Even in the liturgy, the Church has no wish to impose a rigid uniformity in matters which do not implicate the faith or the good of the whole community; rather does she respect and foster the genius and talents of the various races and peoples. Anything in these peoples' way of life which is not indissolubly bound up with superstition and error she studies with sympathy and, if possible, preserves intact. Sometimes in fact she admits such things into the liturgy itself, so long as they harmonize with its true and authentic spirit.

42 posted on 03/15/2004 3:28:14 PM PST by Maximilian
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To: don-o
"But, I cannot see unity returning short of serious persecution."

Funny you should say that...why do you think God made muslims?

;)
43 posted on 03/15/2004 3:30:14 PM PST by Tantumergo
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To: don-o
Woman!

And the clapping is starting to die down! But I think it is more the heritage music.
44 posted on 03/15/2004 3:42:28 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: B Knotts; dubyaismypresident
The presence of "girl altar boys" is an attack on the priesthood.

Pushed by the Weaklands and Hubba Hubba Hubbards of the world.

I think too many people buy into the idea that the use of girl altar boys is merely about "inclusiveness."

It is, but in a much more fundamental way: it is pushed by those who would like to see a laity-run Church, with an eliminated, or at least, greatly reduced priesthood.

Much to the detriment of the boys, who are dropping out. Inclusiveness is so useful to the weaklands et al. It can mean more laity. It also, by inference, means more women all over the altar. In the words of the schismatic priest who implemented so many changes into our parish against direct orders of our liberal Bishop, "It gets us used to seeing women on the altar, paving the way for women priests". He took out the tabernacle, got his 'goal' of women on the altar vis a vis EEM's and altar girls, (citing the Vatican when they agree with the Vatican,) abolished (later reinstated) Eucharistic Adoration, the Rosary and weekly confession (yes, he routinely used communal confession), openly mocked his boss, our Pastor. He also said he didn't care if he were reprimanded or moved, the door to change had been opened and there was no going back. He was right. A dozen years later, the most grievous changes were fixed - sort of. Rosary is back, but not before every mass, only on Tuesday evenings. Adoration is back, but only every First Saturday. The Stations of the Cross are celebrated twice during Lent. You get the idea. And lay groups abound. From the reports of some here on FR, my parish is now 'normal'.

I teach Religious Ed. So many parents of boys would not even consider encouraging their sons to consider the priesthood. But many among the EEM's and the many lay groups and these parents - and most of them are women - demand a voice in running the parish (and get it) and openly discuss the 'day when women can be Priests.' Only a few of us disagree.

45 posted on 03/15/2004 3:56:22 PM PST by fortunecookie
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah; dubyaismypresident
We have seen the golden calf in the temple and it is us.

Ooh, that is a good one. I will be using that one.

46 posted on 03/15/2004 3:58:02 PM PST by fortunecookie
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To: Salvation
"Singing in a choir is not about a performance"

This just drives me crazy. I'm not singing for applause. Singing in the choir is about worship. Everytime the people think the choir has sung a hymn particularly well they applaud. When did this foolishness start and who started it? It never happened pre-VII, at least not that I'm aware of. Perhaps I will speak to our younger priest. I get the feeling that he doesn't appreciate applause in church.
47 posted on 03/15/2004 4:24:44 PM PST by k omalley
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To: Salvation
Singing in a choir is not about a performance;

Especially when you're at a funeral.

I don't mind acknowledging the work that goes into a particularly long haul or big celebration (say on Easter after the choir has done the full Triduum), but on a weekly basis, no. I will admit to having been acknowledged more than once from the altar, and knowing that it moved the priest made me feel good, but next Sunday is a totally different thing.

In the meantime, I am anxious to see what the strict guidelines will be...
48 posted on 03/15/2004 4:31:47 PM PST by Desdemona (Music Librarian and provider of cucumber sandwiches, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary. Hats required.)
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To: Desdemona
I am anxious to see what the strict guidelines will be...

They will be guidelines. Rome has already sent the signal that there will be no restrictions on Communion under both kinds, or altar girls, or, likely, applause (the Pope gets applauded in St. Peter's, during the liturgy).

49 posted on 03/15/2004 4:40:42 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: lrslattery
Back on January 7 Catholic World News had this to say about the new norms:
A long-awaited new document on the Eucharist, delayed by high-level disagreements within the Vatican, will soon be made public. The document will not contain any striking innovations, CWN has learned.

The new document, which was promised by Pope John Paul II when he released his encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia in April 2003, has been expected for several months. In September, the Italian monthly Jesus published what it claimed was the text of a draft version of the document, and reported that the draft had been rejected because it was deemed excessively conservative.

Several subsequent drafts have also met opposition, according to Vatican sources. The editors of the document-- which has been prepared primarly by the Congregation for Divine Worship-- were reportedly under heavy pressure to avoid causing controversy by taking positions that would be judged as extreme. The final document will avoid that danger by confining itself to a repetition of previous Vatican statements and standards. In effect, informed sources report, the new document will be a distilled version of the liturgical norms already published in the General Instructions for the Roman Missal.

In Ecclesia de Eucharistia, Pope John Paul had said that the new document would provide juridical norms regarding the celebration of the Eucharist. The purpose of the document, Vatican officials disclosed at the time, was to curtail liturgical abuse-- a problem that was viewed by the Holy See with grave concern.

In December 2003, the influential Jesuit journal Civilta Cattolica provided an insight into the current thinking of Vatican officials, in an article on the liturgical renewals since Vatican II. (Civilta Cattolica is generally seen as reflecting the views of Vatican officials, since all articles in the magazine are cleared in advance by the Secretariat of State.) The article condemned liturgical abuses and unauthorized innovations, but cautioned against responding to the abuse with new regulations.

"From an excessively rigid framework, we have passed over to an excessive freedom," the Civilta Cattolica article argued. The article spoke of "spontaneity without restraints" in liturgical celebrations. But it also warned against "a nostalgic return to formalism." The Jesuit journal made the argument that "abuses are best regulated not by reprimands," but by proper instruction and formation in proper liturgical celebration.


50 posted on 03/15/2004 5:15:38 PM PST by cebadams (Amice, ad quid venisti? (Friend, whereto art thou come?))
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Comment #51 Removed by Moderator

To: Desdemona
In the meantime, I am anxious to see what the strict guidelines will be...
The full article in the Catholic Herald lists some of them: "New rules on the Eucharist"
52 posted on 03/15/2004 5:41:28 PM PST by gbcdoj
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To: gbcdoj
The full article in the Catholic Herald lists some of them:

No it doesn't. The blog you link to says those restrictions are in the article, but they're not.

53 posted on 03/15/2004 5:48:06 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: gbcdoj
>> No ban on female altar servers however a statement that this is not a universal requirement.

What do you suppose this means? "... not a universal requirement". Not going to ban female altar servers but not going to mandate them either? Or something else?
54 posted on 03/15/2004 5:49:52 PM PST by cebadams (Amice, ad quid venisti? (Friend, whereto art thou come?))
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To: gbcdoj
There will never, ever be female priests. See Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, a statement ex-cathedra (i.e. infallible) from Pope John Paul II issued immediately after the Episcopal Church started ordaining women.

It is getting near time to head to the local indult Tridentine Mass.

I got all excited about the current wave of reforms but it looks like my parish just stopped them in their tracks. The current wave of changes includes kneeling after the Agnus Dei, bowing just before receiving Eucharist, priest must stay in the sanctuary, mandatory silent periods...and a few other minor revisions.

Women have taken over because men have fled. The same happened at the foot of the Cross.
55 posted on 03/15/2004 5:52:29 PM PST by Pio
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To: Pio
Wow, you have "mandatory silent periods" -- that's great! I wish we had them. Instead I think we got mandatory constant mundane music.
56 posted on 03/15/2004 5:56:36 PM PST by cebadams (Amice, ad quid venisti? (Friend, whereto art thou come?))
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To: lrslattery
This is useless. The Novus Ordo itself is the problem.
57 posted on 03/15/2004 6:21:45 PM PST by ultima ratio
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To: Onelifetogive
Many rush out the door because they can't stand the Mass itself. They only want to fulfill their obligation and leave as soon as possible.
58 posted on 03/15/2004 6:26:04 PM PST by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio
Many rush out the door because they can't stand the Mass itself.

LOL!! I can remember asking my mother, as a kid, "why do all those people leave after Communion?"

People have ALWAYS left early, UR.

Especially since the "rules" said you fulfilled your "obligation" if you made it by Offertory and left after Communion.

59 posted on 03/15/2004 6:28:46 PM PST by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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To: sinkspur
Many of the leaste reverent left early in the Old Mass, it's true. But with the Novus Ordo it's the other way around--it's the most reverent who can't stand remaining a second longer than necessary. Who can blame them?
60 posted on 03/15/2004 6:34:33 PM PST by ultima ratio
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