"The Passion" Isn't Anti-Semitic, Says Vatican Aide

ZENIT ^ | 2004-03-11

[dangus]

>> Do you believe that pedophile priests and ministers that run around saying Jesus believed in abortion have furthered or hindered the spread of Jesus' teachings? <<

Absolutely. Your point?

[ambrose]

Jesus, in his original teachings, placed little emphasis on outer religion-that is to say, on church affiliation and church rituals. Had Jesus intended to strengthen people in their outer affiliation, he would have tried to work with the rabbis of his times. Instead, he challenged them outspokenly. He stated that he'd been sent to fulfill "the law and the prophets," but clearly that fulfillment didn't embrace the rabbinical point of view. He could not have intended to fulfill "the law and the prophets" in an outward, institutional way, only to contradict himself by urging his followers to establish a separate church.

[ambrose]

Jesus was known to speak in parables, and he complained that his followers often misinterpreted his words.

[Ohioan]

All right, I will acknowledge that you had a fun punch line. I just do not find Mr. Foxman's assault on both American values and American civility as amusing.

William Flax

[presidio9]

It is true that many of our holydays commemorate our survival, by G-d's mercies, against those who persecute us. While you may find that bizarre, consider the answer that G-d gave Rabshakeh through Isaiah the prophet. It applies to all those who seek to destroy the Jewish people.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the large percentage of Jews who fixate on suffering as their form of worship. God does not ask you to do this.

[presidio9]

Do you believe that pedophile priests and ministers that run around saying Jesus believed in abortion have furthered or hindered the spread of Jesus' teachings?

I know if no clergy members who are pro-abortion. Do you? Priests are just men, subject to the same flaws as the rest of us. That being said, the overwhelming majority truely are men of God. Their effectiveness in spreading His word has been immense.

[af_vet_1981]

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the large percentage of Jews who fixate on suffering as their form of worship.

Perhaps you are thinking of some other religious group. Yom HaShoach and Israel Independence Day are national holidays. I expect you don't begrudge the United States Me orial Day or Veteran's Day.

All the religious holydays are mentioned in the Bible. Many are days of rejoicing, some are days of remembrance. For example we remember when we we suffered as slaves in Egypt because G-d commanded us to remember.

• And it shall be when the LORD shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee, a land flowing with milk and honey, that thou shalt keep this service in this month.
• Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the LORD.
• Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters.
• And thou shalt shew thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt.
• And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.
• Thou shalt therefore keep this ordinance in his season from year to year.
  
  ...
  
  
• These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
• In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.
  
  ...
  
  
• And thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt: and thou shalt observe and do these statutes.

[presidio9]

I am talking specifically about the Holocaust, which, as far as I can tell, is definitely not mentioned in the Bible. If you think there is not a significant percentage of Jews who think religion is about obsessing over that tragedy then I question how close your association really is with the secular Jewish community.

[af_vet_1981]

I am talking specifically about the Holocaust, which, as far as I can tell, is definitely not mentioned in the Bible. If you think there is not a significant percentage of Jews who think religion is about obsessing over that tragedy then I question how close your association really is with the secular Jewish community.

Other days with no religious sanction in the Bible yet many people celebrate them as special days. I don't see why Yom HaShoach would trouble you.
1. New Years Day (western style)
2. Super Bowl Sunday
3. Martin Luther King Day
4. Presidents' Day
5. St. Patrick's Day
6. March Madness
7. (St.) Valentine's Day
8. Easter
9. Memorial Day
10. Independence Day
11. Labor Day
12. Veteran's Day
13. Halloween
14. Christmas

[presidio9]

I fail to see your point. Aside from Easter and Christmas, which are clearly mentioned in "the Bible" (for the purposes of this conversation), all of the other holidays are secular. Sure, you mentioned the feast days of two Saints, but the current customs surrounding those days are the invention of greeting cards companies, not organized religion.
Again,
If you fail to recognize specific differences between these secular products of our culture, and the bizarre Jewish religious custom of obsessing over Holocaust then I question how close your association really is with the secular Jewish community. Admittedly, for a large percentage of the Christians I know, religion means going to Church on Christmas and Easter (if that), and I find that sad. But, for a large percentage of the Jews that I know, religion begins and ends with lamenting over the Holocaust. And I find that infinitely worse. Can you understand that?

[af_vet_1981]

I fail to see your point. Aside from Easter and Christmas, which are clearly mentioned in "the Bible" (for the purposes of this conversation), all of the other holidays are secular.

I don't find either word in the Textus Receptus. I don't find any command, sanction, or example of the rememberance of a birthday in any book of the Bible. The 25th of December seems to follow the Winter solstice. If you wanted to pick a day out of the blue to celebrate the birthday of a Jew I would think you would pick a Jewish holyday sanctioned in the Bible.

Easter is the wrong name and the wrong date if you wish to remember Yeshua of Nazareth from a Biblical perspective. That name would be Pesach and the date would follow the calendar that G-d gave.

Sure, you mentioned the feast days of two Saints, but the current customs surrounding those days are the invention of greeting cards companies, not organized religion.

Are you contending that organized religion has not added days to celebrate ?

Even if you do, you may grant that cultures pick certain days as days of remembrance or celebration.

Again, If you fail to recognize specific differences between these secular products of our culture, and the bizarre Jewish religious custom of obsessing over Holocaust then I question how close your association really is with the secular Jewish community. Admittedly, for a large percentage of the Christians I know, religion means going to Church on Christmas and Easter (if that), and I find that sad. But, for a large percentage of the Jews that I know, religion begins and ends with lamenting over the Holocaust. And I find that infinitely worse. Can you understand that?

Religious attendance in synagogues peak during the High Holy Days. That is symmetric with your Christmas/Easter comparison. I don't think you understand the impact of the Holocaust on the Jewish nefesh.

[presidio9]

I don't find either word in the Textus Receptus. I don't find any command, sanction, or example of the rememberance of a birthday in any book of the Bible. The 25th of December seems to follow the Winter solstice. If you wanted to pick a day out of the blue to celebrate the birthday of a Jew I would think you would pick a Jewish holyday sanctioned in the Bible.

Easter is the wrong name and the wrong date if you wish to remember Yeshua of Nazareth from a Biblical perspective. That name would be Pesach and the date would follow the calendar that G-d gave.

The Gospels don't concern themselves with the dates of events, so much as the events themselves. Matthew and Luke deal extensively with the Nativity. All four deal with His death and resurrection. Close examination of details is a trait of the Jewish faith. Saint Paul taught us that the New Covenant freed us from those traditions.

Are you contending that organized religion has not added days to celebrate ?

Even if you do, you may grant that cultures pick certain days as days of remembrance or celebration.

I am saying that obsession with the Holocaust has replaced religion for many Jews. The same obsession does not exist for Christians over feast days. And, while we're at it, why are we even talking about feast days? I never spoke of a corresponding Holocaust rememberance day.

Religious attendance in synagogues peak during the High Holy Days. That is symmetric with your Christmas/Easter comparison. I don't think you understand the impact of the Holocaust on the Jewish nefesh.

Yes, but the Holocaust does not seem to have any place in Jewish worship, unless you posit that it was a punishment sent by God. Otherwise, it is a particularly dreadful political event, not a religious one.

[af_vet_1981]

Close examination of details is a trait of the Jewish faith. Saint Paul taught us that the New Covenant freed us from those traditions.

As you wish

[presidio9]

As you wish

Not "as I wish." Catholics take it as a fact that God spoke through Saint Paul, the former Jewish persecuter of Christians Saul of Tarsus. For us, them's the facts. If you want to point out inconsistencies in the Christian faith, a good starting point would be becoming clear on what, exactly, we believe.