When is it best to just Cut Your Losses & Get OUT!

common bay horse sense | 2 22 04 | Jack Armstrong

[Jack Armstrong]

I doubt if any one sets out to join themselves to a church that is publicly entrenched in child molestation. Then there is the realization that some times things happen. It's called bad luck or just fate. Yet I have to ask myself at what point do i have to cut my losses & get the hell out!

[Jack Armstrong]

I doubt if any one sets out to join themselves to a church that is publicly entrenched in child molestation. Then there is the realization that some times things happen. It's called bad luck or just fate. Yet I have to ask myself at what point do I have to cut my losses & get the hell out of an organization that permits the spiritual leaders to practice fenonious crimes freely! The very definition of religion is :A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. By this definition I must ask is a man a spritual leader when his eternal soul has been sold to satan? There is no room in this formula for harboring criminals. The idea of local worshipers subsidising pedophilia by donating to support the house and feed the culprits who regularly rape boys is laughable or better said SHAMEFUL! I live in a free country with a free will. My desire to seek & honor the Creator is close to the front of my priority list.I have a mind that is intelligent to know better than to allow my children to be any where near a pervert. Yet for many, having a free will to decide how one worships the LORD, is not an option. There is the key, men are using this spiritual power in order to feed their carnal lusts.There is no spiritual superiority among such vile lowlifes. So for me, religion/worship is very personal. I would never allow any man with even the suggested whisper of depravity or perversity to instruct me on how I should connect to GOD! This is as basic to my moral being as is my desire to protect and care for my children. I am profoundly amazed with how the so called Roman catholic church continues to straddle the issue of removing the garbage from within their ranks. The only thing more amusing than this is the way the actual members of the "Church" pander to the endless side stepping by the clergy! Either it is tolerated and toyed with or you have the real guts to take action. There should be no middle ground. There can be no middle ground! I realize how powerful that system is, so I am not suggesting any one fight "city hall" or in this case vatican hall. But there comes a time when you just have to turn the holy mother's picture to the wall & GET OUT! As long as people pander to these diabolical and synister evildoers they will continue to excersice their letcherous habits upon the inocent children. I cut the noorings a long time ago, before the shroud of doubt and silence was lifted. Yet many still submit their children to possible sexual deviance and molestation. The guilt and disgrace remain as long as the people allow themselves to be manipulated by higherarchy with terms like "watchdog" groups, ongoing investigations & relocated. At what point does a man decide his spiritual virtue is his resopsability & not the responability of other men? How long will men use the word religion to disguise their vile disease? So who is ultimately responsabile for the vast corruption that continues to riddle the church as a horrible cancer? When will men stop hidding behind the skirts of Mary instead of coming into the light of Truth?

[drstevej]

***The very definition of religion is: A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. ***

In this case, Christianity is founded upon Jesus Christ.

Amid the flame bait potential of your "essay" there are some relevant issues to discuss. I doubt this thread will survive, but...

Did you leave the Roman Catholic Church because you believe it does not accurately reflect the teaching of Christ its stated core (de fide) issues or because believing these issues you belive the Roman Catholic Church to be irreparably apostate?

Your views are unlike Luther. In addition to reacting to abuses he saw in his day, he also questioned the foundational core doctrines of Catholicism and instead argued for sola scriptura as the basis for authority and sola gratia/sola fide as the basis for eternal life.

Simply stated, what is the CORE of your protest: contemporary abuses in the American Catholic church or rejection of the core teachings of the Catholic Church even if there were no abuses?

[Jack Armstrong]

Your views are unlike Luther.

Interesting observation, I truly believe , if Martin Luther were alive today you would be astonished at the similarity of points of view that we two , "apostate" cynical heretics would share, "Luther" & I! But the fact remains those who shut their eyes to the obvious sin within the "church" today are as guilty of the acts as those who commit them. I am reminded of the old Fairy Tale ... The Emperors New Clothes... "Doesn't he look marvelous?" "Oh yes, quite rightly!" I say the Emperor is naked and needs to cover his vanity!

[sinkspur]

You put your trust in men. I put my trust in Christ, who said He would never leave His Church.

You go if you want to. I will NEVER follow you.

[drstevej]

***Simply stated, what is the CORE of your protest: contemporary abuses in the American Catholic church or rejection of the core teachings of the Catholic Church even if there were no abuses?***

Did you answer this?

[MiniCooperChick]

I will respond to your initial question without bothering to read your subsequent unreadable unformatted drivel:

When is it best to just Cut Your Losses & Get OUT!

For you....NOW! Buh-bye!!!

[TotusTuus]

***Simply stated, what is the CORE of your protest: contemporary abuses in the American Catholic church or rejection of the core teachings of the Catholic Church even if there were no abuses?***

Did you answer this?

One of a few clues is this from the rant:

"I cut the noorings a long time ago, before the shroud of doubt and silence was lifted."

Also Jack, I've never seen Mary represented in Christian art as having worn skirts.

Don't worry Jack, we'll take care of the problem apparently without your help. But do understand, that despite the truly evil and despicable acts that some Pastors and others in positions of authority have done in the Catholic Church (and other churches, schools, etc, besides), the vast majority have not done such vile deeds. Your rant would imply otherwise.

What did you mean by this statement? Who is it referring to?

"Yet for many, having a free will to decide how one worships the LORD, is not an option."

[arthurus]

If you believe you must judge for yourself whether any individual tenet is wrong or right then you disagree with the most fundamental basis for the Catholic Church. If you see corruption in the men who staff the dioceses and therefore leave the institution that, in spite of the corruption of men, is the only true repository of the faith, hen you are apostate. Jesus said the gates of Hell woiuld not prevail against his Church. He did not say there would not be occasional corruption and strife. He said that evil would not prevail. If you put yourself outside the Church then you escape a particular manifestation of the fallibility of men by removing yourself from the Church instituted by Jesus Christ our God and cut yourself off from the repository of Faith in favor of the multitudinous and changeable interpretations and "takes" on what one should believe or how one should act. For Luther to be right, Hell must have prevailed against the Church for 1200 years. Christ said that would not happen. If He slipped up there, then where else did He slip up? Will you substitute the malleable opinions of men? Either ignore the shenanigans and concentrate on the Eucharist and Confesson and your own reading or find a traditional parish or an Eastern Rite parish. Else is apostasy.

[Between the Lines]

I have to ask what church will you go to?

I see no difference in your Catholic church and how it handles pedophiles and how our Protestant churches do it. Most Protestant churches when they find a pedophile cover it up and dismiss the culprit with no legal action taken. They fear for thier church's reputation. With everything keep secret this pedophile can go on to another church and be hired without anyone knowing of his evil past. Unfortunately there are few churches willing to put their reputation on the line to take a stand against this evil.

If you truly wish to take a stand against evil, you do it where you are. You draw a line in the sand and say 'this far and no more'. You cannot run from evil, for it is everywhere where good men to do nothing to stop it.

Evil will, therefore good must.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***I have to ask what church will you go to?***

"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."
Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem...

...Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

It doesn't matter _where_ you go to church if you are not worshipping Him in spirit and truth!

If you lack those things your going to hell - no matter which church you got to.

[siunevada]

I would never allow any man with even the suggested whisper of depravity or perversity to instruct me on how I should connect to GOD!

On one occasion, after Moses had grown up, when he visited his kinsmen and witnessed their forced labor, he saw an Egyptian striking a Hebrew, one of his own kinsmen.

Looking about and seeing no one, he slew the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.

The next day he went out again, and now two Hebrews were fighting! So he asked the culprit, "Why are you striking your fellow Hebrew?"

But he replied, "Who has appointed you ruler and judge over us? Are you thinking of killing me as you killed the Egyptian?" Then Moses became afraid and thought, "The affair must certainly be known."

Pharaoh, too, heard of the affair and sought to put him to death. But Moses fled from him and stayed in the land of Midian.

Hmmmmm.

Are we off the hook for the Ten Commandments? Perhaps I am "ignorant and unstable" and twisting Scipture as Peter says but we appear to be accepting instruction from a murderer.

[PetroniusMaximus]

***but we appear to be accepting instruction from a murderer.***


Moses turned from those ways! As did the murderous Paul!

Are you really going to use such arguments to defend these pedophile priests?

"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit."

False prophets may even dress like ministers!

[siunevada]

Are you really going to use such arguments to defend these pedophile priests?

Defend them??? Hang 'em high the majority of Catholics would say. If only the the successor of Peter was more like Mussolini instead of the servant he was told to be! Issue the orders! Lop off some heads! Whip the troops back into line!

Merely making the point that the horrific failures of individuals who fail to live up to their public vows and abuse their positions does not invalidate the Church.

Otherwise we could smear every member of the Assembly of God churches because of Swaggert's very public failings, no? If this line of logic holds true for the Catholics it should hold true for all, yes?

[Jack Armstrong]

siunevada
You ask ..."Are we off the hook for the Ten Commandments?"
...and ..."following a murderer.... etc.

I can do nothing to change what happened over 5000 years ago. I just regard the little children (boys) living down the street from me, with far more grace than any Egyptian taskmaster/ guard/soldier. If a grown man would pummel a guilty child molester ("priest") near an inch of his life, because said man witnessed the rape of the child, YES I would be tempted to give the man a pass, as I give Moses!

Besides , I look to the volume of the BOOK (BIBLE) in regard to what it attempts to reveal to mankind, the idea that we should re-open the case of the slain egyptian (like some cold case file) in order to take Moses to court now is simply laughable!
I accept scripture from GOD, He spoke through the prophets, Moses for one, I look to GOD, not man, because I know all men are born sinners.

Presidents, Washington, Grant, Eisenhower & Kennedy all "killed" as you say, however, when your nation is at stake the rules of warfare apply. Moses was the general and "king" of the Hebrews at the time i submit he was at war with the Egyptians! therefore his killing may be considered as an act of warefare. That is why he fled, because he was an obvious enemy of the state!

Thanks for the good reply post!

There is no comparrison

[Jack Armstrong]

"Yet for many, having a free will to decide how one worships the LORD, is not an option."


In many third world countries, the movement away from the "church" is viewed as an act of death , as it is in the hebrew faith.
I thank GOD that I live in a free nation that regards the option of electing to leave the catholic faith as a free will decission.
Pity those who must live in a world where the "church" (catholic) is the only option! In these places, children must suffer in silence with no justice at all!

[siunevada]

I was being more than a bit sarcastic in reply.

Of course there is no comparison between Moses and these miserable people.

It was a murder and not a war for Moses, he hid the body. He feared because his fellow Hebrews knew of it.

Point being, God can work through the worst of His creatures.

Second point is we can't smear the entire group because of a minority of wolves in sheep's clothing. If it is so for the Catholics then it must be so for every Christian. Every group can claim their miserable failures, our sins are always before us.

The Catholics have an old saying, "The floors of Hell are paved with the skulls of bishops." They know how easily the clergy fail to meet their public vows. Without God's help the burden is too much for a human being.