It's a movie, not history -- bishop Patrick McGrath on "Passion of The Christ"

San Jose Mercury News -- Feb 19, 2004 ^ | Feb 19, 2004 | Bishop Patrick McGrath

[m4629]

"While the primary source material of the film is attributed to the four gospels, these sacred books are not historical accounts of the historical events that they narrate. They are theological reflections upon the events that form the core of Christian faith and belief." ..... bishop Patrick McGrath of San Jose, CA.

Full text here at San Jose Mercury news Feb 19, 2004

[m4629]

Just thought I'd introduce you to this Heretic of the Week. Put him on your radars.

There is one role suitable for him in the movie -- Judas

[BlackRain]

All that Catholic school my parents paid for is for naught.

Why didn't they tell me this 30 years ago?

Bishop? Are you are going to tell me that Christ was not a real person next?

[m4629]

Ping -- Heretic of the Week, revisionist

Take notice, warn others.

[Phsstpok]

Why didn't they tell me this 30 years ago?

Bishop? Are you are going to tell me that Christ was not a real person next?

More than 35 years ago I attended the Scarsdale Congregational Church as a kid. Our pastor was Avery Post, who went on to head the World Council of Churches, a leftist group that he used to dole out church money from many churches around the world to Marxist terrorists in Africa in the name of liberation theology.

My sister was going through the equivelant of catechism and went to him with a problem with the theological concepts she was asked to study. She couldn't get her head around the idea of the Trinity. Reverand Post told her not to worry about it, since the whole idea of God was just make believe anyway. I was standing there with her at the time (5 years her junior) and from that moment on I have had little faith in churches or ministers. I right then decided that no preacher would get between me and my relationship with God.

I am anxious to seek out people who can help me with that relationship, be they ordained or not, Protestant or Catholic or even Christian or not. But I will never turn the responsiblity for my my faith over to a church or a preacher. I'm cynical that way. doesn't mean I'm wrong, just cynical.

[Chris Talk]

If these are the bishop's views, he should resign immediately so that someone who DOES believe can be appointed?

You notice that when these hierarchs lose the faith, they never are willing to give up their power and prestige! There they sit, not willing to enter into salvation themselves, nor willing to get out and let someone who WILL feed the sheep, have the position.

[GirlShortstop]

...these sacred books are not historical accounts of the historical events that they narrate.

Bzzzt... oh, sorry Bishop, wrong answer.  Thanks for playing.   

Everyone who acknowledges me before others I will acknowledge before my heavenly Father.
But whoever denies me before others, I will deny before my heavenly Father.
Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.
For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
and one's enemies will be those of his household.'

[m4629]

All that Catholic school my parents paid for is for naught.

My friend, don't be surprised the parish your parents hepled paid for is listed for sale soon, as that has been happening a lot lately, on top of school closings.

Many of these bishops should be charged for grand theft.

But fear not, the merciful God will not abandon us. There are still a good number of faithful servants around, but you might have to travel a ways to get there.

[m4629]

If these are the bishop's views, he should resign immediately so that someone who DOES believe can be appointed?

Many of these guys have no shame. They act like CEOs of companies such as ENRON.

They are in and OF this world.

[BlackRain]

I wish we could complain about this bishop's lack of faith to someone.

The Vatican states that the Gospels are bedrock of the Catholic church. The bishop has publicly stated he doubts their veracity. He should resign if that is the case.

Vatican's Position on the Gospels:

"The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures just as she venerates the body of the Lord, since, especially in the sacred liturgy, she unceasingly receives and offers to the faithful the bread of life from the table both of God's word and of Christ's body."

Source:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

[BlackRain]

Just in case you were wondering. Here is the esteemed Bishop Patrick McGrath in San Jose, California.

[Tantumergo]

"While the primary source material of the film is attributed to the four gospels, these sacred books are not historical accounts of the historical events that they narrate. They are theological reflections upon the events that form the core of Christian faith and belief." ..... bishop Patrick McGrath of San Jose, CA.

Just in case you're keeping a tally of apostate bishops, I thought you might be interested in this one as well!

[m4629]

I wish we could complain about this bishop's lack of faith to someone.

Yes we can indeed. Start with Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and Congregation for Clergy. They will listen and bounce back your complaint to McGrath and ask him "what's up with this?".

While they probably won't do anything immediately, these complaints will stay in the files and McGrath will probably go no further in his career. So that in itself is a good thing, however inadequate.

More importantly, people should be warned about him so they can watch out.

Believe me, quite a few good folks in San Jose area have already started the ball rolling. We won't let McGrath get away with this type of nonsense.

[Aliska]

The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures just as she venerates the body of the Lord,

But does she venerate them as having recorded real historical events? All Christendom has always regarded them as historical until the mucky-ups-come-lately got in the act. Or did I miss something along the way?

From my own personal point of view, if someone comes forward with valid proof that they are not historical, I don't see any point in the Christian religion. It would be reduced to merely a man-made construct.

[Freemeorkillme]

And this is a Bishop! That God for those believers wearing cloth and those attending church to keep the record straight. This is no way to lead a flock...fleece a flock, maybe.

His comments make me wonder if he has seen the movie at all(or opened his bible recently, for that matter)!

[m4629]

But does she venerate them as having recorded real historical events? All Christendom has always regarded them as historical until the mucky-ups-come-lately got in the act. Or did I miss something along the way?

Yes, from BlackRain's link above, VII council document Dei Verbum states very clearly the following .....

19. Holy Mother Church has firmly and with absolute constancy held, and continues to hold, that the four Gospels just named, whose historical character the Church unhesitatingly asserts, faithfully hand on what Jesus Christ, while living among men, really did and taught for their eternal salvation until the day He was taken up into heaven (see Acts 1:1).

Obviously, the ignorant bishop not only departed from Tradition, he is not even familiar with the Vatican II documents.

[Aliska]

Whew! That's a relief. Thanks for getting that out there. I was afraid they changed something and I missed it.

[Unam Sanctam]

The bishop would appear to be contradicting the teachings of the Catholic Church. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (Section 126):

The Church holds firmly that the four Gospels, "whose historicity she unhesitatingly affirms, faithfully hand on what Jesus, the Son of God, while he lived among men, really did and taught for their eternal salvation, until the day when he was taken up."

"For, after the ascension of the Lord, the apostles handed on to their hearers what he had said and done, but with that fuller understanding which they, instructed by the glorious events of Christ and enlightened by the Spirit of truth, now enjoyed."

"The sacred authors, in writing the four Gospels, selected certain of the many elements which had been handed on, either orally or already in written form; others they synthesized or explained with an eye to the situation of the churches, while sustaining the form of preaching, but always in such a fashion that they have told us the honest truth about Jesus."

[aikido7]

The question that Gibson's film ultimately raises is: what is really real? Whose perception of reality is valid? Which perspective is closer to the truth? The religious wars that continue to pockmark human history present ample evidence that millions have been willing to fight and die for their perception of the truth. The sad fact is that—contrary to the impression conveyed by Gibson and others whose spirituality is limited to the story of Jesus' crucifixion—Jesus' agony was not the only or even the ultimate Passion. In fact, the reason that Jesus' crucifixion became central to Christian faith was the conviction of his followers that his agony and death were not the end. Rather than focus on his suffering, they looked beyond in the paradoxical conviction that the Creator had already vindicated Jesus and his vision of a world where all forms of oppression can be resisted and human suffering is relieved. What is really missing from the visions of both Mani and Gibson is the vision of the historical Jewish Jesus himself: that the Creator of this world really cares for all creatures, even enemies, and expects everyone who claims to be his child to do likewise (Matt 5:43-48).

It would be a tragic mistake, therefore, to mimic the Manichean worldview by demonizing Mel Gibson or his movie. Rather he is to be thanked for devoting his own considerable cinematic skills and personal resources to bring The Passion of Christ to the center of international interfaith debate. Even the flaws in his vision provide an unprecedented opportunity for a public catharsis, to exorcise once and for all the demon of cosmic dualism which demonizes the Jews and their vision of God.

To the millions of Christians who will flock to theaters this Lent in the conviction that Gibson's Passion of Christ represents the perfect pre-Easter devotion, may I suggest that you also buy a DVD of Schindler's List. For that is a film that really conveys the vision of Yeshua (Jesus) the Jew: that kindness, hope and forgiveness really can triumph over unspeakable brutality and hatred, even in this world.

==Mahlon Smith