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Pastor and Flock Become Catholics
National Catholic Register ^ | April 2001 | Judy Roberts

Posted on 02/16/2004 11:55:27 AM PST by NYer

DETROIT — When Detroit-born Alex Jones became a Pentecostal minister in 1972, there was little question among those who knew him that he was answering God’s call to preach.

Now, many of his friends and family have dismissed the 59-year-old pastor as an apostate for embracing the Catholic faith, closing the nondenominational church he organized in 1982, and taking part of his congregation with him.

At this year’s April 14 Easter Vigil, Jones, his wife, Donna, and 62 other former members of Detroit’s Maranatha Church, will be received into the Catholic Church during the Easter Vigil at St. Suzanne’s Parish here.

For Jones, becoming a Catholic will mark the end of a journey that began with the planting of a seed by Catholic apologist and Register columnist Karl Keating. It also will mean the beginning of a new way of life.

Jones first heard Keating, the founder of Catholic Answers, at a debate on whether the origins of the Christian church were Protestant or Catholic. At the close, Keating asked, “If something took place, who would you want to believe, those who saw it or those who came thousands of years later and told what happened?”

“Good point,” Jones thought, and tucked it away. Five years later, while he was reading about the church fathers, Keating’s question resurfaced. Jones began a study of the Church’s beginnings, sharing his newfound knowledge with his congregation.

To illustrate what he was talking about, in the spring of 1998 he re-enacted an early worship service, never intending to alter his congregation’s worship style. “But once I discovered the foundational truths and saw that Christianity was not the same as I was preaching, some fine-tuning needed to take place.”

Soon, Maranatha Church’s Sunday service was looking more like a Catholic Mass with Pentecostal overtones. “We said all the prayers with all the rubrics of the Church, all the readings, the Eucharistic prayers. We did it all, and we did it with an African-American style.”

Not everyone liked the change, however, and the 200-member congregation began to dwindle.

Meanwhile, Jones contacted Detroit’s Sacred Heart Seminary and was referred to Steve Ray of Milan, Mich., whose conversion story is told in Crossing the Tiber.

“I set up a lunch with him right away and we pretty much had lunch every month after that,” said Ray. He introduced Jones to Dennis Walters, the catechist at Christ the King Parish in Ann Arbor, Mich. Walters began giving the Pentecostal pastor and his wife weekly instructions in March, 1999.

Crossroads

Eventually, Jones and his congregation arrived at a crossroads.

On June 4, the remaining adult members of Maranatha Church voted 39-19 to begin the process of becoming Catholic. In September, they began studies at St. Suzanne’s.

Maranatha closed for good in December. The congregation voted to give Jones severance pay and sell the building, a former Greek Orthodox church, to the First Tabernacle Church of God in Christ.

Father Dennis Duggan, St. Suzanne’s 53-year-old pastor, said the former Maranatha members and their pastor along with about 10 other candidates comprise the 750-member parish’s largest-ever convert class.

Unity and Diversity

Although not all parishioners at predominantly white St. Suzanne’s have received the group warmly, Father Duggan, who also is white, said he considers the newcomers a gift and an answer to prayer.

“What the Lord seems to have brought together in the two of us — Alex and myself — is two individuals who have a similar dream about diversity. Detroit is a particularly segregated kind of community, especially on Sunday morning, and here you’ve got two baptized believers who really believe we ought to be looking different.”

Father Duggan hopes eventually to bring Jones onto the parish staff. Already, he has encouraged Jones to join him in teaching at a Wednesday night Bible service. And, he is working on adapting the music at Masses so that it better reflects the parish’s new makeup.

The current European worship style at St. Suzanne’s has been the most difficult adjustment for the former Maranatha members, Jones said, because they had been accustomed to using contemporary music with the Catholic prayers and rituals.

“The cultural adaptation is far more difficult than the theological adaptation,” he said.

Protestant Issues

Jones said the four biggest problems Protestants have with Catholicism are teachings about Mary, purgatory, papal authority, and praying to saints. He resolved three of the four long ago, but struggled the most with Mary, finally accepting the teaching on her just because the church taught it.

“It is so ingrained in Protestants that only God inhabits heaven and to pray to anyone else is idolatry. ... The culture had so placed in my heart that only the Trinity received prayer that it was difficult.”

He is writing a paper on the appropriateness of venerating Mary for a class at Detroit’s Sacred Heart Seminary, where he is taking prerequisite courses for a master’s degree in theology and pastoral studies. He also is writing a book for Ignatius Press and accepting speaking engagements through St. Joseph Communications, West Covina, Calif.

Jones, the father of three married sons and grandfather of six, is leaving the question of whether he becomes a priest up to the Church.

“If the Church discerns that vocation, I will accept it. If not, I will accept that, too. Whatever the Church calls me to do, I will do.”

Although he has given up his job, prestige, and the congregation he built to become Catholic, Jones said the hardest loss of all has been the family and friends who rejected him because of his decision.

“To see those that have worshiped with and prayed with me for over 40 years walk away and have no contact with them is sad.”

It was especially painful, he said, when his mother, who had helped him start Maranatha, left to go to Detroit’s Perfecting Church, where his cousin, gospel singer Marvin Winans, is the pastor.

Neither Winans nor the pastor of the church that bought Maranatha’s building would comment on Jones’ conversion.

Jones also is troubled that those he left behind do not understand his decision.

“To them, I have apostasized into error. And that’s painful for me because we all want to be looked at as being right and correct, but now you have the stigma of being mentally unbalanced, changeable, being looked at as though you’ve just walked away from God.”

Jones said when his group was considering converting, prayer groups were formed to stop them. “People fasted and prayed that God would stop us from making this terrible mistake. When we did it, it was as though we had died.”

He said Catholics do not fully understand how many Protestants see their church. “There’s this thin veneer of amicability, and below that there is great hostility.”

But he remains convinced he is doing the right thing.

“How can you say no to truth? I knew that I would lose everything and that in those circles I would never be accepted again, but I had no choice,” he said.

“It would be mortal sin for me to know what I know and not act on it. If I returned to my former life, I would be dishonest, untrustworthy, a man who saw truth, knew truth, and turned away from it, and I could just not do that.”


TOPICS: Activism; Apologetics; Catholic; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Ministry/Outreach; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics; Theology; Worship
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To: Campion
Transubstantiation does not make Christ's humanity omnipresent (present everywhere) but merely multipresent or multilocal (present in several places at once). That's not the same thing.

Six of one, half-dozen of the other. The issue isn't between whether he's omnipresent or multipresent, but rather that neither is a characteristic or ability of non-deistic beings. There is no record of the multipresence of angels, nor is there record of multipresent humans. The understanding of Christ's ability to pass through walls and doors is speculative and not explicitly stated in the text.

41 posted on 02/17/2004 11:51:48 AM PST by Frumanchu (I for one fear the sanctions of the Mediator far above the sanctions of the moderator)
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To: Frumanchu
The issue isn't between whether he's omnipresent or multipresent, but rather that neither is a characteristic or ability of non-deistic beings.

Well, no, that's a conclusion that you want to make, but nothing supports it. Clearly, God is omnipresent. Multilocality is a lesser ability than omnipresence, so it's something that could belong to a lesser order of existence than divinity.

There is no record of the multipresence of angels, nor is there record of multipresent humans.

As I pointed out, there is such a record.

The understanding of Christ's ability to pass through walls and doors is speculative and not explicitly stated in the text.

John 20:19 and 20:26 make it crystal clear that Jesus was able to come into the midst of the disciples without doors being opened. There's nothing "speculative" about it.

42 posted on 02/17/2004 12:02:09 PM PST by Campion
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To: saradippity; AAABEST
BTTT
43 posted on 02/17/2004 1:34:32 PM PST by Phx_RC
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To: Phx_RC
Welcome to FR!
44 posted on 02/17/2004 1:39:44 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Frumanchu
(c) The third and last question has to do with the multilocation of Christ in heaven and upon thousands of altars throughout the world. Since in the natural order of events each body is restricted to one position in space (unilocatio), so that before the law proof of an alibi immediately frees a person from the suspicion of crime, multilocation without further question belongs to the supernatural order. First of all, no intrinsic repugnance can be shown in the concept of multilocation. For if the objection be raised, that no being can exist separated from itself or show forth local distances between its various selves, the sophism is readily detected; for multilocation does not multiply the individual object, but only its external relation to and presence in space. Philosophy distinguishes two modes of presence in creatures:


the circumscriptive, and

the definitive.

The first, the only mode of presence proper to bodies, is that by virtue of which an object is confined to a determinate portion of space in such wise that its various parts (atoms, molecules, electrons) also occupy their corresponding positions in that space. The second mode of presence, that properly belonging to a spiritual being, requires the substance of a thing to exist in its entirety in the whole of the space, as well as whole and entire in each part of that space. The latter is the soul's mode of presence in the human body. The distinction made between these two modes of presence is important, inasmuch as in the Eucharist both kinds are found in combination. For, in the first place, there is verified a continuous definitive multilocation, called also replication, which consists in this, that the Body of Christ is totally present in each part of the continuous and as yet unbroken Host and also totally present throughout the whole Host, just as the human soul is present in the body. And precisely this latter analogy from nature gives us an insight into the possibility of the Eucharistic miracle. For if, as has been seen above, Divine omnipotence can in a supernatural manner impart to a body such a spiritual, unextended, spatially uncircumscribed mode of presence, which is natural to the soul as regards the human body, one may well surmise the possibility of Christ's Eucharistic Body being present in its entirety in the whole Host, and whole and entire in each part thereof.

There is, moreover, the discontinuous multilocation, whereby Christ is present not only in one Host, but in numberless separate Hosts, whether in the ciborium or upon all the altars throughout the world. The intrinsic possibility of discontinuous multilocation seems to be based upon the non-repugnance of continuous multilocation. For the chief difficulty of the latter appears to be that the same Christ is present in two different parts, A and B, of the continuous Host, it being immaterial whether we consider the distant parts A and B joined by the continuous line AB or not. The marvel does not substantially increase, if by reason of the breaking of the Host, the two parts A and B are now completely separated from each other. Nor does it matter how great the distance between the parts may be. Whether or not the fragments of a Host are distant one inch or a thousand miles from one another is altogether immaterial in this consideration; we need not wonder, then, if Catholics adore their Eucharistic Lord at one and the same time in New York, London, and Paris. Finally, mention must be made of mixed multilocation, since Christ with His natural dimensions reigns in heaven, whence he does not depart, and at the same time dwells with His Sacramental Presence in numberless places throughout the world. This third case would be in perfect accordance with the two foregoing, were we per impossible permitted to imagine that Christ were present under the appearances of bread exactly as He is in heaven and that He had relinquished His natural mode of existence. This, however, would be but one more marvel of God's omnipotence. Hence no contradiction is noticeable in the fact, that Christ retains His natural dimensional relations in heaven and at the same time takes up His abode upon the altars of earth.

There is, furthermore, a fourth kind of multilocation, which, however, has not been realized in the Eucharist, but would be, if Christ's Body were present in its natural mode of existence both in heaven and on earth. Such a miracle might be assumed to have occurred in the conversion of St. Paul before the gates of Damascus, when Christ in person said.to him: "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?" So too the bilocation of saints, sometimes read of in the pages of hagiography, as, e.g., in the case of St. Alphonsus Liguori, cannot be arbitrarily cast aside as untrustworthy. The Thomists and some later theologians, it is true, reject this kind of multilocation as intrinsically impossible and declare bilocation to be nothing more than an "apparition" without corporeal presence. But Cardinal De Lugo is of opinion, and justly so, that to deny its possibility might reflect unfavorably upon the Eucharistic multilocation itself. If there were question of the vagaries of many Nominalists, as, e.g., that a bilocated person could be living in Paris and at the same time dying in London, hating in Paris and at the same time loving in London, the impossibility would be as plain as day, since an individual, remaining such as he is, cannot be the subject of contrary propositions, since they exclude one another. The case assumes a different aspect, when wholly external contrary propositions, relating to position in space, are used in reference to the bilocated individual. In such a bilocation, which leaves the principle of contradiction intact, it would be hard to discover an intrinsic impossibility.



(Below, I'll link to the entire article).
45 posted on 02/19/2004 4:20:56 AM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: Frumanchu
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm
46 posted on 02/19/2004 4:21:50 AM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: Frumanchu
The understanding of Christ's ability to pass through walls and doors is speculative and not explicitly stated in the text.

Now when it was late the same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst and said to them: Peace be to you.

47 posted on 02/19/2004 4:25:46 AM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: Campion
Well, Calvin was the first to deny this miracle. Maybe our friend is a Calvinist
48 posted on 02/19/2004 4:27:08 AM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: Phx_RC
There is a tradional Catholic forum if you want a place on the web where you can be around others like yourself.
49 posted on 02/19/2004 4:37:19 AM PST by AAABEST (<a href="http://www.angelqueen.org">Traditional Catholicism is Back and Growing</a>)
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To: Frumanchu
http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/realpresence1.html
50 posted on 02/19/2004 4:39:01 AM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: Catholicguy
It's amazing to me that people who believe that God can create the universe, the sun, the world, the mountains and the seas, yet can't believe that Christ can be in 2 places at once or walk through a door.

Huh?

When people try to figure out God it's as an ant on the sidewalk trying to figure out Einstein's theory of relativity ... times 1000.

You're certainly on the right side of this, but I'm not sure if you're going to penetrate that level of sillyness!

51 posted on 02/19/2004 4:56:51 AM PST by AAABEST (<a href="http://www.angelqueen.org">Traditional Catholicism is Back and Growing</a>)
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To: Tantumergo
His human nature has been divinised by the action of the Holy Spirit, perhaps what the Orthodox would term theosis.

No, that would be incorrect.

52 posted on 02/19/2004 6:04:15 AM PST by MarMema
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To: Catholicguy
Maybe our friend is a Calvinist

He is.

53 posted on 02/19/2004 8:56:53 AM PST by Frumanchu (I for one fear the sanctions of the Mediator far above the sanctions of the moderator)
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To: Frumanchu
Oh. OK. So, what did you think of the links?
54 posted on 02/19/2004 9:18:56 AM PST by Catholicguy (MT1618 Church of Peter remains pure and spotless from all leading into error, or heretical fraud)
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To: MarMema
"No, that would be incorrect."

So, would Orthodox theology have anything to offer on the nature or qualities of Christ's glorified humanity?
55 posted on 02/19/2004 12:30:19 PM PST by Tantumergo
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To: Catholicguy
Oh. OK. So, what did you think of the links?

Still working my way through them as time permits.

However, I have another question. Even given the communication of divine attributes to the glorified body of the "post-incarnate" Christ, what then is the explanation for the institution of the Lord's Supper in which Christ says that the bread is His body and the wine His blood? He is not at that point in a glorified body, and yet he says that the elements are His body and blood.

56 posted on 02/26/2004 10:34:46 AM PST by Frumanchu (God does not call the qualified...He qualifies the called.)
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To: P-Marlowe; Dr. Eckleburg; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; trisham; redhead; narses

Here is Alex Jones’ story.


57 posted on 05/06/2007 4:30:26 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

Wow, talk about digging up an old thread, how did you find it?


58 posted on 05/06/2007 4:51:31 PM PDT by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: NYer; sfm; G S Patton; Gumdrop; trustandhope; MarkBsnr; pblax8; oakcon; newbie 10-21-00; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic Ping List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to all note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

59 posted on 05/06/2007 8:13:20 PM PDT by narses ("Freedom is about authority." - Rudolph Giuliani)
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To: NYer

We have a similar situation at our church — not the entire church converted, but the minister did. The next year his wife converted.

This year he taught a Bible Study Class and I think and Episcopal minister who attended may be on his way to Catholicism. We never know what will touch someone else.


60 posted on 05/06/2007 8:21:40 PM PDT by Salvation (" With God all things are possible. ")
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