My extensive search for Jesus, and how I found Mel Gibson at the end of it.

Florida SOUNDOFF.com ^ | 02-02-04 | John Grasmeier

[BlackElk]

Again, SSPX is a schism (multiply by 250) and respond as promised.

You do realize that in admitting your rejection of the doctrine of papal infallibility you concede schism.

Game, set, match.

[Pyro7480]

The clergy in SSPX is in schism, per the 1988 Vatican decree. The people who attend the chapels are in a "irregular situation," also per a Vatican statement.

[BlackElk]

Thank you. I missed that one. Donatism which is heresy and recognized as such for many centuries as well as rejection of papal infallibility.

No wonder we must reference schism as his game.

Good thing we are not New Agers or we might see a reincarnational link between Donatus of casae Nigrae and Marcel of modern day Gaul (and gall).

[BlackElk]

SWSPX is a schism. JP II said so. His is the definitive word.

I realize that you are in Florida but what makes you think that child molestors are not being defrocked. Lavender queens have no business in the priesthood, child molestors or otherwise. The molestors have every business being defrocked and imprisoned for as long as possible. Likewise the coverup artist bishops.

[BlackElk]

Re: #24 SWSPX=SSPX. Triple the credit.

[BlackElk]

Good for you!

[AAABEST]

Ok That's three. Be right back.

:)

[Campion]

This being said, I am sorry to report some bad news to my Catholic brethren. If your priest is a one of the enemy’s infiltrators that have penetrated our church or a God hating homosexual who is waking up with his boyfriend Sunday morning before putting his hands on your communion wafer, you are not receiving the body of Christ. Neither are your children. It saddens me to think that this is going on across the nation and the world but it most certainly is. Those who spit in God’s face are doing nothing more than pretending to give His children communion.

Your "bad news" is the Donatist heresy. It was rejected by the Church -- the Catholic Church, that is -- back around the time Rome fell to the Goths.

If a priest is validly ordained and says the right words over valid Eucharistic matter and has at least the habitual intention to confect the Eucharist, he confects the Eucharist.

Why? Because the Sacrament does not depend on the righteousness of the human minister, but on the righteousness of the Savior. You are receiving, not the body of Fr. Murphy, but the Body of Christ. So it doesn't matter, from the POV of the validity of the Sacrament, whether Fr. Murphy slept with Steve, Eve, or a well-thumbed copy of the Vulgate Bible last night. Of course, as to the eternal destiny of Fr. Murphy's soul, that's an entirely different matter ...

[saradippity]

This is a wonderful game you guys have invented,thanks!!!I really like spectator sports.Black Elk have you planned entertainment for half time?

[Campion]

right intent. The first two are easily determined. It is the third which is difficult if not impossible to know.

Theologians, orthodox ones, say that the intent required is the habitual intent to say Mass. Nothing more. You'll find that taught clearly prior to Vatican II, I believe. If the priest intends to say Mass, even if he's tired and not really thinking about it much, he has habitual intent.

IIRC, there used to be a rule where priests in a state of mortal sin incurred another mortal sin if they offered Mass in that state. I think that belief went out after VII.

Nope. Of course, an allowance might be made if a priest has to offer Mass for his people and is unable to get to Confession in time, but otherwise, not. Receiving the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin is the sin of sacrilege. Saying Mass implies that the priest must receive the Eucharist. QED.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Theologians, orthodox ones, say that the intent required is the habitual intent to say Mass. Nothing more. You'll find that taught clearly prior to Vatican II, I believe. If the priest intends to say Mass, even if he's tired and not really thinking about it much, he has habitual intent.

Actually, what I have read states due to the structure of the Old Mass it was nearly impossible not to have proper intent. Not so with the Novus Ordo which allegedly places more burden on priests' intent for reasons I have not yet been able to define. I am not speaking of fatigue but rather belief and intent to do what the Church does.

Nope. Of course, an allowance might be made if a priest has to offer Mass for his people and is unable to get to Confession in time, but otherwise, not. Receiving the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin is the sin of sacrilege. Saying Mass implies that the priest must receive the Eucharist. QED.

I don't see where we disagree on this point.

[AAABEST]

LOL sara. It's good to see you, I was thinking about you earlier today. I was feeling a bad that I've been so hard on you in the past. I won't in the future because after getting to know you better you share many of my views and see that you're a good person. I'm sorry I didn't trust you.

B.E. and I are glad to provide you the fun. I have a lot of respect for him (he's one of the most well written guys on the forum) and enjoy his mind when he does't get to "upitty".

If anyone is curious as to what's going on with BE and I, go to this post #60.

[sinkspur]

I can only pray that your infatuation, like most infatuations, doesn't leave you seriously disappointed.

Your jihad in favor of the SSPX, and against the Latin Rite in union with John Paul II, has been a manifestation of emotionalism the likes of which I've not seen in a long time on the religion forum.

I admire your ardor, but your despicable pant-wetting anger at John Paul II should be beneath a man of your age and background.

BTW, a priest who utters the words of consecration, within the context of the Mass, DOES validly confect the Holy Eucharist. To maintain that a priest's personal disposition is dispositive of the consecration is contrary to the Faith, as is your "un-Catholic" denial of Papal infallibility.

As I said on another thread, I hope that when your head has stopped spinning around, that your face is to the front again.

[AAABEST]

Your "bad news" is the Donatist heresy.

Oh please. Read through the entire thread so you know the context and get back to me.

[RFT1]

The Novus Ordo in some locations is celbrated in Latin, with the priest facing the altar. Try www.stagnes.net

and while the mass in my parish is mostly celebrated in English, the rubrucs are largely Triditional, with use of the rail, incense, etc. Here is a pic of the parish I belong to Altar.

http://www.stpatrickcolumbus.com/StPathome/images/StPatsDedication/5xeDSCF0108.jpg

[RFT1]

That is the situation as far as the laity is concerned, "illregular". The laity save for the handful of SSPX 3rd order members are not part of the schism, and the SSPX priests pray for John Paul II and the local ordinary in every mass. That said, the priests and laity who attend SSPX chapels range from being de facto Sedes to "morderates" who attend a SSPX chapel because there are no reverent alternatives avilable.

In my albiet quite limited onbservations, in communities that have convinent Indult masses or even quasi traditional Novus Ordo alternatives avilable, the SSPX tends to be more on the radical end as there is less of a moderate element there and it becomes dangerous territory to tread in.

[Possenti]

Great story, bro. I almost could have written it myself. (You have freepmail.)

The private chapel I attend is considered "independent". I'll be attending my first SSPX Mass on St. Valentine's day in Cincinnati. My good friend's daughter is getting married there. I'm really looking forward to it, as I've never been to a Traditional wedding yet, either. If I'm ever in Fla., I'll make it a point to visit your Church.

[ultima ratio]

"The clergy in SSPX is in schism, per the 1988 Vatican decree. The people who attend the chapels are in a 'irregular situation.'"

There was no decree of excommunication by JPII. This is a common misapprehension. There was a letter. In it the Pope stated the SSPX had been excommunicated by way of a latae sententiae penalty. But such automatic excommunications are incurred only for reasons of culpability or malice. Canon Law itself--which is the Pope's own law, remember--provides many exceptions--which were evoked legally and justifiably by Archbishop Lefebvre. The Pope made no mention of this in his letter--but he should have since, if the Archbishop had indeed acted out of good conscience, no penalty had ever been incurred. Bottom line: the Pope misspoke.

[Fearless Flyers]

Thanks for bringing me up to date John. About the only thing I miss about the Catholic Church is the ceremony of the Mass. Unfortunately theres not much else I miss. On the plus side our Presbyterian Church offers the Apostles Creed and we to pray for the one Catholic Apostlitic Church. (Catholic: Universal)

On the negative side one of the Priests from my Parents Catholic Church just retired unexpectedly and was shipped off to the Catholic Retirement Home; the place they ship them off to when accusations arise from twenty years past.
On the Plus side vandals don’t discriminate between Catholics and Presbyterians Both the Presbyterian Church and the Catholic Church were vandalized with graffiti last Saturday night.

[TradicalRC]

I too would vehemently disagree with the statement that SSPXers are not traditionalists.

Read carefully, I said an SSPXer who did NOT recognize the Divine Authority granted to the Pope was outside of Traditional Catholicism.

I understand why some would attend a SSPX Mass and I know that there are a great many that yearn for normal relations with the Roman Catholic Church as well as a restoration of the Traditional Liturgy, I am one.

But the command of obedience is not to be taken lightly, we are being tempted most seriously in this regard. It is painful. I have often left Mass with a broken heart because I see such mediocre progressives attempting to be "relevant" making a mockery of the Mass and the music and the liturgy.

I offer it up to God and I pray for restoration. I always speak up for a more traditional understanding of liturgy and catechesis when the opportunity presents itself.

I am not your enemy by a long shot.