Question for Freeper Catholics

1/27/04 | LS

[LS]

I recently watched "The Messenger: The Story of Joan of Arc," starring Milla Jovovich. Not being a Catholic, I had some questions:

1) At the end, the notes said Joan was "canonized" 500 years later(approx. 1930s, I guess). Does canonization automatically mean one is "sainted?" Or are they different? If so, what is the difference?

2) What are the prerequisites to be either "canonized" or "sainted," if they are different?

3) Specifically to the movie---if anyone saw it---was the Dustin Hoffman character supposed to be Lucifer, the accuser?

4) I'm weak historically on this: was the film accurate about Joan often doing things on her own ("if you love me, fight for me") as opposed to leading the armies "in the name of God?" I suppose it depends on what you think of Joan, but among believers, is the consensus that she indeed received instructions from God, or that she was a fruitloop?

[OLD REGGIE]

Nor is it the truth.

From your proof site:

An important archaeological discovery was made in the Vatican when a site for construction of car parking was being cleared. Archaeologists discovered an ancient necropolis of the times of St. Apostle Peter, the same that is mentioned in the Gospel. Now this version is studied by historians; if it proves true, this in its turn will confirm another hypothesis suggested by historian Magrherita Guarducci. She supposes that an entombment of St. Apostle Peter was found under the altar that is situated under the St.Peter's basilica dome.

Can you do better than that?

What is untrue?

[conservonator]

What is untrue?

Brewer's claim that it's all a fraud.

[OLD REGGIE]

Don't be foolish just to contradict me. You know they're here and I know they're here.

Are you so foolish as to believe the miniscule numbers here has any meaning in the big picture? Are there some here who have hate for others? The answer is yes, without a doubt.

Absolutely. All of the various Protestant denominations don't affect my faith at all. I have no problem seeing them as fellow Christians, albeit with some degree of error in their beliefs.

I seriously have seldom seen the degree of arrogance you display. You consider yourself the big I and as such, speak for all others. Be careful getting down off your high horse.

All Catholics want is the same courtesy.

Mostly. The same for all others.

[SoothingDave]

Are you so foolish as to believe the miniscule numbers here has any meaning in the big picture?

Here is where we are.

I seriously have seldom seen the degree of arrogance you display. You consider yourself the big I and as such, speak for all others. Be careful getting down off your high horse.

I just call them like I see them. If we could put aside our differences that would be great. But as long as Protestants feel the need to spread blood libel, I will be here to counter it.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Brewer's claim that it's all a fraud.

Here is what Brewer said. It is all he said in the entire argument. It is obvious you probably didn't read the article.

Even Martin Luther wondered how there could be 26 apostles buried in Germany, when they were only twelve in the entire Bible. . . It is clear that most 'relics' are frauds.--Bart Brewer, Pilgrimage From Rome, (C) 1986 Bob Jones University Press , p. 126

The entire article can be found at this Athiest site Here

I don't vouch for the absoloute accuracy in any way. Of course the proof you sent is meaningless.

If you care to point out the lies in the article, fine.

If you wish to dismiss it out of hand because it was researched by Atheists, fine.

On the other hand don't waste my time with your own unsubstantiated "facts".

[The Truth will set you Free]

The word "catholic is a Greek word for "universal". For 2,000 years the Catholic Church has carried out the mission given by Christ to "make disciples of all nations"(Matt 28:19). The Church Jesus establised was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church". This can be found in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch as early as the year 107.

Christ did in fact establish a church. "Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona...Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church."(Matt.16:17-19). The true Christian Church is not strictly a human body, but the Mystical Body of Christ. "And he is the head of the body, the church."(Col.1:18). "But now there are many members indeed, yet one body...Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member."(1 Cor.12:20-27). "Because we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones."(Eph.5:30). "For as in one body we have many members, but all the members have not the same office: So we being many, are one body in Christ and every one members one of another."(Rom.12:4-5). "Know you not that your bodies are the members of Christ?"(1 Cor.6:15). "There shall be one fold and one shepherd."(John.10:16). "Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all."(Eph.4:3-6). "Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them."(Rom.16:17).

The Church is sanctified in truth. "These things Jesus spoke, and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said...Holy Father, keep them in thy name whom thou hast given me; that they may be one, as we also are. ...Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. ...That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us. ...I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one."(John.17:1-23). "And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand."(Mark.3:25)

* "Seek and you shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you."(Matt.7:7).

Christ directed his Apostles. "All power is given to me in heaven an in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing then in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teacing them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."(Matt.28:18-20). Christ protects the teaching authority of his church. "These things have I spoken to you, abiding with you. But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in may name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you...when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me. And you shall give testimony, because you are with me from the beginning."(John.14:25-26;15:26-27). Paul wrote, "These things I write to thee...that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."(1 Tim.3:14-15).

St. Paul even warns about private interpretation; "certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction."(2 Peter.3:16). The gospel is to be taught by his Church. "Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature."(Mark.16:15).

The Church doesn't make up it's own traditions. It is in complete standing with the Bible and the teaching of the Apostles. "Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned whether by word or by our epistle."(2 Thess.2:14). "And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have received of us."(2 Thess.3:6). Why is there room for tradition? "This is that disciple who giveth testimony of these things, and hath written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written."(John.21:24-25).

Peter was the first Pope. The "rock" apon which Christ built his Church (Matt.16:17-19). The other Apostles understood that he had the authority from Christ to lead his Church. They gave him the presiding place every time they assembled(Acts.1:15, 5:1-10), and his name was always first when the Apostles' names were listed (Matt.10:2, Mark.3:16, Luke.6:13-14, Acts.1:13). It's known in history itself. The historian Caius wrote that Pope Victor was "the thirteenth Bishop of Rome from Peter." St. Cyprian stated that Cornelius (21st Pope) "mounted the lofty summit of the priesthood...the place of Peter." Even Protestant historians attest to Peter as the first Pope of the Catholic Church; like the Protestant historian Cave in Historia Literaria.

Christ's priests continue to do his work here on earth. "So much I owe to the grace which God has given me, in making me a priest of Jesus Christ for the Gentiles, with God's Gospel for my priestly charge, to make the Gentiles an offering worthy of acceptance, consecrated by the Holy Spirit."(Rom.15:16).

I strive to walk the way of love taught to me by the Lord(1 Cor.13). God Bless.

[CourtneyLeigh]

http://WWW.m-w.com >>>>Temporal: Main Entry: 1tem·po·ral Pronunciation: 'tem-p(&-)r&l Function: adjective Etymology: Middle English, from Latin temporalis, from tempor-, tempus time 1 a : of or relating to time as opposed to eternity b : of or relating to earthly life c : lay or secular rather than clerical or sacred : CIVIL 2 : of or relating to grammatical tense or a distinction of time 3 a : of or relating to time as distinguished from space b : of or relating to the sequence of time or to a particular time : CHRONOLOGICAL - tem·po·ral·ly adverb >>>Temporary: Main Entry: 1tem·po·rary Pronunciation: 'tem-p&-"rer-E Function: adjective Etymology: Latin temporarius, from tempor-, tempus time : lasting for a limited time - tem·po·rar·i·ness noun There really isn't much difference in the definitions. A limited time vs. distinction of time. Tempor is latin for time. In both accounts, a period of time. So tempor.... punishment, is purgatory according to whom? Or I thought it was a period of purification. Which is it?

[conservonator]

Here is what Brewer said. It is all he said in the entire argument. It is obvious you probably didn't read the article.

Really? Then how on earth did I find this quote "This fraud is nothing more, nor nothing less, than archeological eisegesis." at the end of the Brewer hack piece?

And I never claimed that the article I linked to was "proof" I said it was "truth". Once again your animosity to anything pertaining to the Church over rules any sense of humor you might have. The "truth" I linked to was in "Pravda" which as you might know is Russian for "truth" which is funny and ironic since it was a blatant propaganda tool of the SU. I figured you'd get that, my mistake, I forget how blind you are to anything other than your ongoing quest to find legitimacy by "proving" the Church "illegitimate.

[OLD REGGIE]

I just call them like I see them. If we could put aside our differences that would be great. But as long as Protestants feel the need to spread blood libel, I will be here to counter it.

As long as the RCC sees "ecumenism" with all "other" Christians as second class citizens I will be here to counter it.

1. “No man outside the Roman Catholic Church and outside obedience to the Pope of Rome can ultimately be saved...all who have raised themselves against the faith of the Roman Church and have died in final impenitence have been damned and have gone down into eternal punishments of hell.” Pope Clement VI

2. “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” Pope Boniface VIII

3. “Where the necessity of salvation is concerned, all the faithful of Christ must be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” V Lateran Council

4. “It is an absolute necessity to submit to the Head and Supreme Pastor... to whom it is absolutely necessary for salvation to remain subject.” Pope Leo XIII

No Salvation Without Personal Submission To The Pope

[SoothingDave]

There really isn't much difference in the definitions.

Try learning what Catholics mean by "temporal punishment."

Also try to find where any Catholic source says that Purgatory requires durations of time.

Then get back to me.

So tempor.... punishment, is purgatory according to whom? Or I thought it was a period of purification. Which is it?

Why are they mutually exclusive? Do we put people in jail in order to punish them cause we are sadistic, or is it because we think the punishment will reform people?

SD

[SoothingDave]

As long as the RCC sees "ecumenism" with all "other" Christians as second class citizens I will be here to counter it.

Even "second class citizenship" is citizenship. That's more than the strictest Protestant will allow us. Remember how Catholics are a danger to "Godly Christians"?

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

And I never claimed that the article I linked to was "proof" I said it was "truth". Once again your animosity to anything pertaining to the Church over rules any sense of humor you might have. The "truth" I linked to was in "Pravda" which as you might know is Russian for "truth" which is funny and ironic since it was a blatant propaganda tool of the SU. I figured you'd get that, my mistake,

I confess I missed the connection. It is funny.

And then you go and spoil it all with your supercilious attitude. Sigh.

I forget how blind you are to anything other than your ongoing quest to find legitimacy by "proving" the Church "illegitimate.

Unless you consider the claims for the multiple findings of Peter's bones the "Church" you are wrong. I am however, skeptical of the claims concerning the multiple copies of Peter's bones and skulls in existance.

[conservonator]

And then you go and spoil it all with your supercilious attitude. Sigh.

MY supercilious attitude? Compared to you Reg, I'm a lightweight in that area. Now that is funny.

Unless you consider the claims for the multiple findings of Peter's bones the "Church" you are wrong. I am however, skeptical of the claims concerning the multiple copies of Peter's bones and skulls in existance.

My faith in Christ and His Church isn't dependent on relics. I am however, convinced that St. Peter preached in and was martyred in Rome.

[OLD REGGIE]

Remember how Catholics are a danger to "Godly Christians"?

This is representative of "Protestantism"? Since you can decide one "Protestant" is really "Protestants" let's see what one "Catholic" says:

" You mean like the Mormons or the Albigensians or the Gnostics or the Arians? These were heretics who threatened to destroy the Church. God's word is powerful. The one Christian heresy that was not destroyed by the church --Islam, has become quite a big danger. Lutherism and Calvinism is dead while true Christianity still survives..."

Oh oh all you "Protestants", the Catholics want to see you destroyed.

[SoothingDave]

This is representative of "Protestantism"?

I didn't see any Protestants saying the statement was outrageous or offensive. On the contrary, we were lectured for being too sensitive.

The one Christian heresy that was not destroyed by the church --Islam, has become quite a big danger.

Oh oh all you "Protestants", the Catholics want to see you destroyed.

Try reading it again. It says "heresy" was destroyed. Not heretics.

Who doesn't desire that all men should give up their false ideas and embrace the truth? Of course heresy should be destroyed.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

I didn't wish to get involved in your silly display of grammatical superiority over the use of the word "temporary" but you can't seem to leave the subject alone.

Also try to find where any Catholic source says that Purgatory requires durations of time.

Of course no Catholic source says anything about duration of time in Purgatory so it would be logical to assume Purgatory is either a "permanent" situation or a "never" situation.

In either event the whole concept of Indulgences is a waste isn't it?

"An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin." The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead.

If Purgatory can't be considered a "temporary" situation why waste your time and/or money in obtaining an indulgence?

[SoothingDave]

I didn't wish to get involved in your silly display of grammatical superiority over the use of the word "temporary" but you can't seem to leave the subject alone.

it's not "grammatical superiority" to expect people who trumpet their "understanding" of things to know what the terms mean. Duh. Give me a break, all right?

Of course no Catholic source says anything about duration of time in Purgatory

Yes, exactly. Thank you.

If Purgatory can't be considered a "temporary" situation why waste your time and/or money in obtaining an indulgence?

You don't need to. It all depends on how you want your purging experience, or those of your loved ones to go. Nobody says you have to have indulgences.

The idea of indulgences, like any good work, is not to view it as some type of loophole or magic thing. It is to motivate you toward a better relationship with God and with your fellow people.

Of course, the idea that suffering or good works are either good for us, or that they help to make us more Christlike and suitable for entering Heaven is just anathema to the "faith alone" crowd.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Try reading it again. It says "heresy" was destroyed. Not heretics.

You read it again. The reply was to: "No, the Roman church was a cowing force, abusing or murdering anyone that didn't follow their direction." These are people we are talking about, not ideas.

"These were heretics who threatened to destroy the Church."

Who doesn't desire that all men should give up their false ideas and embrace the truth? Of course heresy should be destroyed.

And the people "destroyed" in the process are "collateral damage"?

I didn't see any Protestants saying the statement was outrageous or offensive. On the contrary, we were lectured for being too sensitive.

I don't see you saying that . “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” is offensive.

Are Non Roman Catholics too sensitive for finding that attitude offensive?

[OLD REGGIE]

If I understand you there is no such a thing as "temporary" concerning Purgatory.

Logically it is either "never" or "forever". Correct?

Then you agree it is a waste of time obtaining indulgences for those in purgatory because, if they are there, they will always be there?

[polemikos]

Not all agree. Peter's Bones and Rome's Truth Warning: This is not nice.

ROFLMAO. This is a Bart Brewer screed. LOLOLOL.
That's like posting a Jack Chick tract as a "proof text".

Reg ol' boy. Peter is the Rock upon which Jesus built his church.
These are the very words of Jesus.
When will you accept this divinely revealed truth?

Peace,