Question for Freeper Catholics

1/27/04 | LS

[LS]

I recently watched "The Messenger: The Story of Joan of Arc," starring Milla Jovovich. Not being a Catholic, I had some questions:

1) At the end, the notes said Joan was "canonized" 500 years later(approx. 1930s, I guess). Does canonization automatically mean one is "sainted?" Or are they different? If so, what is the difference?

2) What are the prerequisites to be either "canonized" or "sainted," if they are different?

3) Specifically to the movie---if anyone saw it---was the Dustin Hoffman character supposed to be Lucifer, the accuser?

4) I'm weak historically on this: was the film accurate about Joan often doing things on her own ("if you love me, fight for me") as opposed to leading the armies "in the name of God?" I suppose it depends on what you think of Joan, but among believers, is the consensus that she indeed received instructions from God, or that she was a fruitloop?

[Cronos]

In the east, Jesus is spreading like wild fire despite all of our stubborn and petty arguments.

Again you are right, bringing the bigger picture to this debate.

[redgolum]

Just trying to put a little bit of reason back into this debate. As a Lutheran, and you as a Roman Catholic, we do have differences in doctrine. Some are major (prayers to the saints, Marian doctrines), some seem major (justification and sanctification) but are really very close once you get to how it affects personal faith. The thing is, the rest of the world doesn't see us as Catholic or Lutheran, they see us as Christians. The Catholic church takes a lot of flak world wide because it is the most visible. However, the rest of us "separated brethren" are also under assault. It is just that we tend to go beneath the radar more often.

We can sit here and argue about purgatory, call each other names, and general have a great time patting ourselves on the back for our pithy responses, or we can act together to try to turn this country back to God.

As one of the founding fathers said "We need to all hang together, or we will all hang separately."

[Cronos]

Yes, you're right, kinda lost my temper back there. I really do think that we should not be passing around false rumours of other groups of Christians. Its good to know that there are Lutherans (and Episcopalians as well as others) who don't allow the dark force to corrupt their beliefs (and I do believe what the leaders of the ECUSA did was wrong). May God help you to retain the true meaning of Christ in your hearts and actions.

[SoothingDave]

The thing is, the rest of the world doesn't see us as Catholic or Lutheran, they see us as Christians. The Catholic church takes a lot of flak world wide because it is the most visible. However, the rest of us "separated brethren" are also under assault. It is just that we tend to go beneath the radar more often.

We can sit here and argue about purgatory, call each other names, and general have a great time patting ourselves on the back for our pithy responses, or we can act together to try to turn this country back to God.

But, and this is why FR needs this forum, we can not act together as Christians when so many Protestants think the Catholics are the enemy. People here honestly think that if the Catholic Church were destroyed it would be good for Christianity. You are right that all Christians are under attack from forces both inside our culture and from outside. But desiring that the largest and international-based voice for Christians be brought down is not going to advance the culture of life in this nation.

SD

[SoothingDave]

PS: Like the rest, you somehow confuse "temporal punishment" with "temporary punishment." Words mean things. I can't believe that your side is the one arguing how easy it is for each person to read and understand everything.)

I understand her just fine. You aren't questioning her understanding, you're scoffing at her spelling. And puffing yourself up at a pretense of being more intelligent. And yes, her side does understand. Scripture is cake as a Christian. Cake.

LOL. Party on, Havoc. You're a riot. Yes, you "understand." LOL

("Temporal" and "temporary" are two different words. I'm not quibbling over spelling. This is priceless. You show just how ignorant all of you are. Thank you. )

SD

[SoothingDave]

Admitting you've read a Chick tract is a first for FR.

I'm apalled that you so quickly forget that I've read a few.

Sorry. But you must have told me years ago. I forgot.

SD

[SoothingDave]

I've studied this garbage since 1988 and am pretty well versed at this point.

Yeah, except you can't tell the difference between "temporal" and "temporary." LOL. You're well-versed. LOL

SD

[redgolum]

I don't want the Roman Catholic church to be destroyed. Nor do I want any orthodox (little o ) Christian denomination to be wiped out. All I am saying is that we have far more in common than we have in difference. Debates about doctrine have their place, but I just hate to see them decay into a free for all where the only thing that is accomplished is we as Christians get a bad name.

Sigh, I guess I am still young enough to hope that we can all start working together. Unfortunately I am old enough to know that won't be perfect in this world.
Red

[Invincibly Ignorant]

The emphasis was on "read". There was no one compiled, universally accepted version of the Biblos in the first century. That's his point.

I'm not aware there needed to be an accepted universal version.

[tiki]

I agree completely. I was raised a Methodist and converted to Catholicsm at 46. I had all the same misconceptions, most which had been put into my thoughts by an anti-Catholic mother. But what she said didn't seem reasonable so I spent my life trying to discover the truth until I found for it real and for certain.

[Cronos]

I'm not aware there needed to be an accepted universal version.

I'll take that as a serious question. Yes, there was a need to have an accepted, universal version -- there were spurious writings such as the Gnostic gospels claimed by some on this post to be true -- the Gospel of Thomas the twin, which was regarded by the early Church fathers as false (and since it was written intheir times, they'd be better judges than us) and conflicting views -- read the conflicts between Monophysites and us and other Christian thoughts (www.newadvent.com).

I dont' follow it very well, but here goes:

Nestorians: One person, two hypostases, two natures.
Catholics: One person, one hypostasis, two natures.
Monophysites: One person, one hypostasis, one nature.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HERESY3.TXT

This was a big debate in the 1st century and H*****, I barely get it. Well it clears out like this -- the church says that Christ was ONE man wholly human and wholly divine, the Monophysites (the Ethiopian Church) says that he was completely divine,only one nature -- divine.
The Nestorians (who still exist in Persia) say that Christ was wholly human and wholly divine but that his earthly body was discarded (not sure about this)

[Cronos]

So, you see, these were the issues they debated about in the first centuries. The reason brought forth by many 'reformers' were already answered in these early debates. Sure I have questions but I'd rather hear/read from more learned folks who debated this in earlier times. (who know, maybe tracts of OUR discussion may be considered useful reading in 3000 AD!)

[Cronos]

converted to Catholicsm at 46. I had all the same misconceptions, most which had been put into my thoughts by an anti-Catholic mother. But what she said didn't seem reasonable so I spent my life trying to discover the truth until I found for it real and for certain.

That's interesting. I think the RC church promotes more freedom for discussion and a lot more learning. I would think that there are many true believers in other churches who may think about this point -- To reform the church, reform it from within, be another St. Francis.

[OLD REGGIE]

I won't argue Bible or doctrine with non-Catholics because they lack so much knowledge and understanding and I will have to trust the Holy Spirit to enlighten us all.

Who, other than yourself, has sufficient knowledge and understanding?

[SoothingDave]

Who, other than yourself, has sufficient knowledge and understanding?

It's pretty clear that those who think "temporary" and "temporal" are just misspellings of the same word don't.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

History on the Protestant Bible.

To be fair you should also read another opinion on the Apocrypha.

History of the Apocrypha

[OLD REGGIE]

Scuttles what? That Peter was in Rome? Of course he was in Rome. Jimminy Crickets. They found his bones there a few decades ago.

Not all agree.

Peter's Bones and Rome's Truth

Warning: This is not nice.

[OLD REGGIE]

But, and this is why FR needs this forum, we can not act together as Christians when so many Protestants think the Catholics are the enemy. People here honestly think that if the Catholic Church were destroyed it would be good for Christianity.

Do you care to put a number on this claim? 5-10-50-500-500,000-5,000,000, more?

While we are at it can you honestly say the contra doesn't apply?

[conservonator]

Warning: This is not nice.

Nor is it the truth.

[SoothingDave]

Do you care to put a number on this claim? 5-10-50-500-500,000-5,000,000, more?

Don't be foolish just to contradict me. You know they're here and I know they're here.

While we are at it can you honestly say the contra doesn't apply?

Absolutely. All of the various Protestant denominations don't affect my faith at all. I have no problem seeing them as fellow Christians, albeit with some degree of error in their beliefs.

All Catholics want is the same courtesy.

SD