Posted on 01/23/2004 5:57:00 AM PST by drstevej
GRPL THREAD: "Great Quotes about Calvin & Calvinism" [Resumed]
The thread is established to compile an anthology of great quotes about Calvin and Calvinism.
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Reminder About The Smokey Backroom
Posted on 01/22/2004 10:03:07 AM CST by I Am Not A Mod
... Also, some people get mad when discussions get moved to the backroom. If a thread gets moved, but you think the article really should be in the main forum, then post the article again, and add a note reminding people to maintain decorum on the thread and give a link to the backroomed thread for those who find that simple request to be too much to ask.
Thanks, the staff.
No but I'm thinking of drafting Jonathan Edwards into the High Council of the Order of the Eternal Exclamation Point with Asterik™ posthumously. He deserves a medal for his clear thinking on Revelation 3:20.
[Whitefield] had a loud and clear voice, and articulated his words and sentences so perfectly, that he might be heard and understood at a great distance, especially as his auditories, however numerous, observ'd the most exact silence. He preach'd one evening from the top of the Court-house steps, which are in the middle of Market-street, and on the west side of Second-street, which crosses it at right angles. Both streets were fill'd with his hearers to a considerable distance. Being among the hindmost in Market-street, I had the curiosity to learn how far he could be heard, by retiring backwards down the street towards the river; and I found his voice distinct till I came near Front-street, when some noise in that street obscur'd it. Imagining then a semi-circle, of which my distance should be the radius, and that it were fill'd with auditors, to each of whom I allow'd two square feet, I computed that he might well be heard by more than thirty thousand. This reconcil'd me to the newspaper accounts of his having preach'd to twenty-five thousand people in the fields, and to the antient histories of generals haranguing whole armies, of which I had sometimes doubted.
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Thanks!
~ drstevej
Only by the Grace and Favor of Almighty God. It will be He who adds to our number as many as the Lord our God shall call....I am just the scribe.
Too bad he didn't know anything about context. This is not a salvation scripture. It is written to the church at Laodicea, not to heathens:
`And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness--the faithful and true--the chief of the creation of God; I have known thy works, that neither cold art thou nor hot; I would thou wert cold or hot. So--because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to vomit thee out of my mouth; because thou sayest--I am rich, and have grown rich, and have need of nothing, and hast not known that thou art the wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked, I counsel thee to buy from me gold fired by fire, that thou mayest be rich, and white garments that thou mayest be arrayed, and the shame of thy nakedness may not be manifest, and with eye-salve anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see. `As many as I love, I do convict and chasten; be zealous, then, and reform; lo, I have stood at the door, and I knock; if any one may hear my voice, and may open the door, I will come in unto him, and will sup with him, and he with me. He who is overcoming--I will give to him to sit with me in my throne, as I also did overcome and did sit down with my Father in His throne. He who is having an ear--let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies.' (Rev 3:14-22)Young's Literal Translation
These people are already saved. Jesus says "Whom I love, I chasten," This is a chastening, in this message to the church. God deals with His own differently than He deals with the heathen. One of His Own is treated as a son, but He does not treat the heathen so. Of course you will say, "But Jesus loves everybody". Still doesn't change the fact, the cold hard fact, that this letter was written to a church, not to unsaved people. By extension, it is written to all churches. The condition of every church can be found in the messages to the churches in Revelation. Every church on the face of the earth today falls into one of those categories and descriptions.
Rev 3:20 is written to Christians, not to the unsaved.
So what you are saying is that Jonathan Edwards didn't know Jack about the book of Revelation, huh?
Well I came to the Lord in response to someone quoting Revelation 3:20. If that is true, then would you doubt my Salvation?
I'm sure that dozens came to the Lord in response the Jonathan Edward's sermon that day. Would you doubt their Salvation?
Rev 3:20 is written to Christians, not to the unsaved.
When you posted chapter 3 you emphasized the words "And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write...
As if just because it was written to the assembly at Laodicea, that it didn't apply to anyone else. But look carfully. The letter was written to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans...
So using your hermenutics, it didn't even apply to the Church, but God was chastising the Angel.
Assuming that Rev 3:20 does not apply to anyone but those already saved. Would you mind supplying me with as many verses as you can think of that apply to the unsaved. You Calvinists often say that, for instance, the Book of Romans was written so that it only applies to Christians. But when you come down to it, the letter only applies to those First Century Christians that were in Rome at the time that Paul wrote the letter. That is who the letter is addressed to. It is not addressed to the believers in Jerusalem.
At any rate, just do me a favor. Give me a list of verses that I can quote to unbelievers that are actually addressed to unbelievers.
Why must you insert things into what I wrote that I never said? Oh, I know why, I just want to see if you will admit it! You can't answer the Word, as written, so you attack the messenger, and attribute things to him that HE DID NOT SAY! Typical.
As if just because it was written to the assembly at Laodicea, that it didn't apply to anyone else. But look carfully. The letter was written to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans... So using your hermenutics, it didn't even apply to the Church, but God was chastising the Angel.
And the Lord would do this through a letter? When the Angel is a spiritual being? Obviously it was written for the church's enlightenment, reproval, and correction. It was the Church that the message was written to, through the agency of John the Apostle, to the Pastors of those churches, which the Greek word can also mean, and in this context, would be more accurate.
Assuming that Rev 3:20 does not apply to anyone but those already saved. Would you mind supplying me with as many verses as you can think of that apply to the unsaved. You Calvinists often say that, for instance, the Book of Romans was written so that it only applies to Christians. But when you come down to it, the letter only applies to those First Century Christians that were in Rome at the time that Paul wrote the letter. That is who the letter is addressed to. It is not addressed to the believers in Jerusalem. At any rate, just do me a favor. Give me a list of verses that I can quote to unbelievers that are actually addressed to unbelievers.
I'm not jumping through hoops for you. Your request is not from a heart that truly wants to know, but for the purpose of further slander and libel. If you can't understand the context of scriptures, you will fall short in your understanding of them. Salvation is not dependent on certain "correct" scriptures to be read or recited, any more than it is dependent on a certain prayer being uttered as some sort of a mantra or incantation. Salvation is of God, beginning to end.
"If any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him." Revelation 3:20
With that in mind, do you have any comment?
Response to the Gospel is not dependent on the words spoken, it is dependent on The Holy Spirit quickening to the hearer that which He has imparted to them. No one has doctrinal perfection. No one has 100% infallible interpretation of scripture. Some have more than others, but God uses His Word as He wills, not as the preacher wills.
The context of the passage in Revelation 3:20 is a message to the churches, i.e. the saved. Context is important. Otherwise, one could just cherry-pick verses and string them together, and make up any doctrine they wish. That obviously has taken place. The true test of any doctrine is not "does it hold together?", but, "is it faithful to the whole of revealed scripture, when viewed in context?"
God caused revival and a harvest because He willed it, not because it was Spurgeon or Edwards preaching it. You're trying to hold the preacher responsible for the way he wields the sword, rather than realizing that it is the sword that does the work.
Golly Nobody, does that include YOU?
Some have more than others,
In this case you have more than Spurgeon and Edwards put together, huh?
but God uses His Word as He wills, not as the preacher wills.
So if God uses Revelation 3:20 as a salvation verse (like he did with me) and people are convicted by the Holy Spirit after they hear it, then You're not going to complain, right? And if Spurgeon and Edwards use it to convince people to receive Jesus, then you are not going to call them on the carpet because of the horribile hermenutics, right?
That being said, what is your problem with Revelation 3:20? Its like you are repelled by anyone, including good solid dyed in the wool Calvinists using it to call people to repentance.
Its a call to Jesus verse nobody. God uses it for that purpose. Maybe you should too.
Yes it does, and it includes you too, counselor.
In this case you have more than Spurgeon and Edwards put together, huh?
I made no such claim.
So if God uses Revelation 3:20 as a salvation verse (like he did with me) and people are convicted by the Holy Spirit after they hear it, then You're not going to complain, right? And if Spurgeon and Edwards use it to convince people to receive Jesus, then you are not going to call them on the carpet because of the horribile hermenutics, right?
It's God's Word, and He will use it as He wills. I have my doubts that it was that verse, and that verse alone, that opened your heart. It was one of several, or possibly many. That verse speaks nothing to your fallen conditiuon, to your need of a Savior. You would not have desired Jesus unless you were first convicted that you needed Him. This verse did not do that.
Spurgeon and Edwards were only messengers. It wasn't their eloquence or charisma that caused people to come to Jesus. It was the Word, and the Holy Spirit. If God so chose, He could have the rocks in the road preach the Gospel. Or the trees in the forest. Or the clouds in the sky. Spurgeon and Edwards would be the first to tell you it didn't have anything to do with them.
That being said, what is your problem with Revelation 3:20? Its like you are repelled by anyone, including good solid dyed in the wool Calvinists using it to call people to repentance.
That doesn't change the context the verse is written in, and who it was originally written to. Why do you refuse to acknowledge that? It's evident to anyone who reads it. God may allow it to be used as it has been, but that does not diminish it's primary message, which is a message to the church, to not forget Whom it is they serve. You would set aside the primary meaning for that which it has been used for.
Taking verses out of context is a dangerous thing to do. It can lead to error. The verses are not each stand-alone little nuggets of Truth. Too many people think that they can just string together scriptures and arrive at Truth. Doesn't work that way.
Its a call to Jesus verse nobody. God uses it for that purpose. Maybe you should too.
Sure it is! And it's primary meaning is for those in the church to renew their fellowship with the One who saved them! God will honor the use of it, because it's His Word, but maybe you should consider its primary meaning, and be sure you're availing yourself of that!
So, you're contending God isn't strong enough to convict marlowe by that verse alone? - every word is God given, the power of Him - inside of each and every bit
.......even the demon spirits recognized Scripture
Taking verses out of context is a dangerous thing to do. It can lead to error. The verses are not each stand-alone little nuggets of Truth. Too many people think that they can just string together scriptures and arrive at Truth. Doesn't work that way.
so the Catholic magisterium now comes into play?
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