[jboot]

I thank you all for bearing with this long post. I've pinged the GRPL, but everyone is welcome to post. I'm not looking to argue these points (I know the arguments already, I read the threads here in awe), I'm just looking for advice.

[jboot]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>PING<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I'd agree with Wrigley. Perhaps if you found another church more steadfast, some of your friends might follow you. Either way, you still have your friends.

Your post is very true about the general misconceptions surrounding Calvinism.

Our son, a college junior, sat in his Western Civilization history class yesterday and listened to the professor denounce Calvinism as "mysticism which relies on the Old Testament over the New Testament" and predestination as "confused logic and mean-spirited."

The professor had the courtesy to preface his remarks by admitting he was a Romanist.

Big surprise.

Can you imagine a professor saying that about the religion of peace? He'd be fired in an instant.

Remnant = remnant, I guess.

[BibChr]

Here's my answer:

If you had a McDonald's where you really liked the people, but every time you ordered a burger, they just gave you a jelly bean, what would you do?

If you had a garage where you really liked the people, but every time you took your car in with engine problems, they just cleaned your windshield, what would you do?

If you had a dentists's office where you really liked the people, but every time you went in with a messed-up tooth, they just rinsed your mouth with minty sweetness, what would you do?

You'd go where they provided the service they were supposed to provide.

What service is a church supposed to provide?

"I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry" (2 Timothy 4:1-4)

"And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the headChrist 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love." (Ephesians 4:11-16)

Your pastor isn't doing his #1 job. The church isn't doing its #1 job.

Take your family where they do. Say why nicely, and leave peacably, but my advice is -- leave.

Dan

[CCWoody]

My FRiend, I understand everything you say. I too am held captive by the church of Pelagius. I too understand the guilt trips which are employed as attempts to motivate people. I too face the reality of "friends" turning their backs because we can no longer endure in silence the gross theologies. I recently had to quit a Bible study and place distance between myself and one whom I treat as a friend because of things which were so outrageous they were adressed by the paid pastoral staff.

I am not in a position to be your advisor. But, I can be a sympathizer in your struggles. It is a shame we are not closer. Cling to your wife and know that the Lord may not be as interested in bring you out as He is in bringing you through your struggles.

Woody.

[Jaysun]

He said “We don’t want to talk about THAT here. It’s too controversial.”

I've heard statements like this before, and it usually indicates an adherence to doctrine over adherence to the Bible.

The elders are spiritual babes who read Bruce Wilkerson and Rick Warren instead of the scriptures, so there is little use in involving them even after I have spoken to the pastor.

The elders are spiritual babes? Once again, this would indicate a problem to me.

There is no doubt that the people in your present church are wonderful. In fact, I would hate to see a church in which that were not the case. In my opinion, God is trying to tell you that it's time to move on. Remember the great commission? Go out and save the world? When I moved and began looking for a new church I paid particular attention to the "outreach" being done by the church. Also, I like to see a church which doesn't have too many "one time visitors". After all, if you're supporting a ministry that neither brings in the lost or keeps them in once they've shown up, you're supporting a ministry that isn't being very effective in building the kingdom of God. Why not just pray about it with your wife and do what you feel is right?

[lockeliberty]

Believe me, I can empathize with your situation. In my situation, the nearest true Bible believing church is over 100 miles away. So I stand and fight. This is where God placed me. Remember, you can reach the lost in church as well as in the world. Don't make your decision based upon the fact that going to a true church will make you ~feel~ better. If it is God's will that you stay and suffer persecution for his name and reach the lost in your church then that is your duty. If it is God's will that you should be discipled under truth instead of peleganism then that is your duty. Pray continually.

God Bless

[HarleyD]

I’m in a similar position. I hold a strong Calvinistic belief but there are no “good” Calvinistic churches nearby. What I mean by “good” is a church which makes people read their Bibles, memorizes passages and study God’s Word. Most of the Calvinistic churches in our area are “love thy neighbor and let’s get along” types.

Our family attends a great Southern Baptist Church in which the Word is preached. At times I have had some theological problems with what the pastor and/or Sunday School teacher is preaching/teaching. The SBC does not believe in salvation by works or lost of salvation but they hold a mild Armenian perspective.

Our pastor occasionally goes on the same tirade about going out and “saving” people. I think it's a matter of coming at the scriptures from a different perspective. In any case it is always good to be reminded and encouraged to share your faith.

My wife is more reserve than I. At times my Calvinistic fervent will arise and I’ll say something which raises eyebrows. Usually I’ll bite my tongue. Oh, if the blind could only see the light like me. :O)

To satisfy our Calvinistic cravings we have augmented the church services with tapes from John MacArther’s church (Grace To You) www.gty.org. They have a wonderful tape library we have joined for minimum costs. This has been a wonderful blessing and has helped us with a good common sense approach to scripture. I have also started to read his books which you MAY be able to get at the library. (Don’t hold your breathe.)

Just one more thing. I have traveled a lot and attended a number of different churches and services in my life; from Pentecostal to Baptist (Yes and even worshipped with those wacky CATHOLICS). While I may have differed with their theology (sometimes significantly) I have always felt a bond with them as long as they realized they were repentant sinners who needed a saving Christ.

At the risk of generalization, the ONLY groups of people I have had problems with are those who believe you must work for your salvation. To me this is heresy. I do not believe groups who believe they must work for their salvation understand the need for a saving Christ or of true repentance. If they’re counting on their works to get them to heaven, they’re wasting their time.

[Onelifetogive]

The world is FULL of wonderful Christians. If you leave and find a new Church where you recieve "solid food," you'll end up finding a whole new batch of great friends...

[irishtenor]

One of the men in our church came from over 20 years in a church like that. After trying to convert them for years, he finally gave up and went looking for a church with "MEAT" where he can be spiritually fed. I think, for your own growth, that you might concider that also.

[Lexinom]

Dear Brother,

Many of us have shared similar difficulties finding a faithful Bible-believing church. It's tough seeing so much error around us and feeling powerless, but it's all in God's sovereign plan.

There are many wonderful resources online by which you can be fed. Individual church websites will often have sermons posted for audio download. It's not a final solution, of course, but maybe a little a bit of help.

We will keep you in our prayers.