Vanity: I Need Advice from the GRPL!

[jboot]

Hello, fellow GRPL members. Please forgive me for pinging you to this lengthy vanity post. I have a dilemma, and I need the advice of my Christian brothers.
My problem is quite simple. My wife and I have attended a small but energetic Bible church for several years. We have many friends there, and the fellowship we feel with everyone there is genuine and Spirit-filled. So what’s the problem? Over time, our beliefs have diverged from that of our church. Some background:

When we started attending, I was a “milk-fed” Christian, and my wife was a pretend Christian, believing intellectually, but without faith. God was not finished with us, and broke both of us in short order (another thread would be needed for full explanations). We came out of the experience as grace-filled believers hungry for the Word. But I was astonished at what I read in the Word; the God I thought I knew was tolerant, loving and gentle to a fault. He wanted us to work for Him to make “good things” happen. All of the “bad things” that happen in the world were unfortunate, but He either couldn’t or wouldn’t do anything about them, because…well, you all know where I’m going.

The God I discovered was Sovereign over His universe. Not a hair falls from my head without His will. He knows His sheep, has known them since the beginning, and gives them to His Son forever. He speaks and the mountains shake and crumble. Nothing impedes His will. My wife, thank God for her, was just as delighted and comforted by this revelation as I was.

Not surprisingly, this is NOT the doctrine taught at my church. The pastor, who is a close friend of mine, considers “Calvinism” to be a dirty word. He even says it funny, in a stage whisper, the way a child might toss out a vulgar word to his friend son the school bus. The only time he has ever been impatient with me was when I brought up election in a bible study. He said “We don’t want to talk about THAT here. It’s too controversial.” Later, he said “your not one of those predestination people, are you?”

On another occasion he told me that “I don’t really believe in assurance.” This is not surprising in that he appears to be Hyper-Arminian. (Proof: he believes infants are condemned to hell because they are not able to accept, believe and repent. Listening to him trying to comfort a man whose wife had lost a baby was one of the most excruciating things I’ve ever been a party to. That family left soon after.)

For months, his sermons have dwelt on evangelism. This is an excellent topic, but his favorite motivational speech is “None of you care one bit about the lost. By your inaction, you are condemning your neighbors to hell. God can’t save them without your help. If you fail, you will be crying tears in heaven for the ones you helped send to hell while everyone else rejoices.” (Yes, these are word for word accurate.)

Despite this kind of nonsense, we love the people and the pastor. We’ve had great times with these folks, and the Lord is working among them. Furthermore, I am quite certain that the Lord planted us in this church, and is not yet calling us to leave. But we are becoming very unhappy, especially muy wife. She is adamant that I should confront the pastor, but I am rather nervous about losing a friend. The elders are spiritual babes who read Bruce Wilkerson and Rick Warren instead of the scriptures, so there is little use in involving them even after I have spoken to the pastor. Has anyone faced a situation like this? What did you do? Help!

[jboot]

I thank you all for bearing with this long post. I've pinged the GRPL, but everyone is welcome to post. I'm not looking to argue these points (I know the arguments already, I read the threads here in awe), I'm just looking for advice.

[jboot]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>PING<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

[Wrigley]

Wow.

My first reaction is that God is telling you to move on and find a new church.

[CCWoody]

Have you already pinged the whole list?

Woody.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I'd agree with Wrigley. Perhaps if you found another church more steadfast, some of your friends might follow you. Either way, you still have your friends.

Your post is very true about the general misconceptions surrounding Calvinism.

Our son, a college junior, sat in his Western Civilization history class yesterday and listened to the professor denounce Calvinism as "mysticism which relies on the Old Testament over the New Testament" and predestination as "confused logic and mean-spirited."

The professor had the courtesy to preface his remarks by admitting he was a Romanist.

Big surprise.

Can you imagine a professor saying that about the religion of peace? He'd be fired in an instant.

Remnant = remnant, I guess.

[BibChr]

Here's my answer:

If you had a McDonald's where you really liked the people, but every time you ordered a burger, they just gave you a jelly bean, what would you do?

If you had a garage where you really liked the people, but every time you took your car in with engine problems, they just cleaned your windshield, what would you do?

If you had a dentists's office where you really liked the people, but every time you went in with a messed-up tooth, they just rinsed your mouth with minty sweetness, what would you do?

You'd go where they provided the service they were supposed to provide.

What service is a church supposed to provide?

"I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry" (2 Timothy 4:1-4)

"And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the headChrist 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love." (Ephesians 4:11-16)

Your pastor isn't doing his #1 job. The church isn't doing its #1 job.

Take your family where they do. Say why nicely, and leave peacably, but my advice is -- leave.

Dan

[jboot]

I think so. I got the list from our erstwhile Pop...er, Dr. Steve's page,

[CCWoody]

My FRiend, I understand everything you say. I too am held captive by the church of Pelagius. I too understand the guilt trips which are employed as attempts to motivate people. I too face the reality of "friends" turning their backs because we can no longer endure in silence the gross theologies. I recently had to quit a Bible study and place distance between myself and one whom I treat as a friend because of things which were so outrageous they were adressed by the paid pastoral staff.

I am not in a position to be your advisor. But, I can be a sympathizer in your struggles. It is a shame we are not closer. Cling to your wife and know that the Lord may not be as interested in bring you out as He is in bringing you through your struggles.

Woody.

[CCWoody]

Dan, unfortunately, in my case, I do not have a Reformed option. Therefore, I am left with forsaking the assembling of the saints or girding my sword to be as a banner of truth in the Pelagian sea.

I am recently left weary from a long church emphasis whereby we lost a number of people who were then falsely called idolaters. Fortunately, I have been away the last several weekends hunting so I have had a chance to calm down.

Woody.

[BibChr]

Where in the world are you that there are only two churches — Trona, California???

I understand your dilemma; for a couple of years we went to a church because we had to be going to a church, and it was doctrinally closer than the Calvary Chapel (where they did at least do things with the Word, but the pastor had weekly unresolved issues with Calvinism and authority). But I spent that period DYING inside. Had to get so desperate that I visited a church and then, even after finding it was Presbyterian, RE-visiting it. We've since joined it, though I do have perhaps more doctrinal differences with it than the other church we were languishing in.

But at least I'm ALIVE again, and GROWING. Astonishing, the difference a passionate preacher and genuine fellowship can make!

Pray, seek, open your mind a little bit (if that applies to your situation). I pray God gives you some deliverance soon. Made all the difference to me, praise God!

Dan

[jboot]

Bothe of you and my wife agree. ;-) I'll admit, that there is a big part of me that wants to go, too. There is an American Reformed Church right down the street, and an OPC about 15 minutes away by car..

The truth is, part of me is like Luke Skywalker. I want to believe that my church could "grow up", so to speak.

I have attempted to correct the pastor before, when he once said "I have personally saved x number of persons". He took the correction well, and has been quick to disavow his own salvific-ness ever since. He now is a mere syncretist, at least publicly.

[BibChr]

Your wife sounds like a smart lady.

8^>

[jboot]

LOL... She is definately my better half. She also knows I'm a softy and would hang around forever to keep from hurting anybodys feelings.

[Jaysun]

He said “We don’t want to talk about THAT here. It’s too controversial.”

I've heard statements like this before, and it usually indicates an adherence to doctrine over adherence to the Bible.

The elders are spiritual babes who read Bruce Wilkerson and Rick Warren instead of the scriptures, so there is little use in involving them even after I have spoken to the pastor.

The elders are spiritual babes? Once again, this would indicate a problem to me.

There is no doubt that the people in your present church are wonderful. In fact, I would hate to see a church in which that were not the case. In my opinion, God is trying to tell you that it's time to move on. Remember the great commission? Go out and save the world? When I moved and began looking for a new church I paid particular attention to the "outreach" being done by the church. Also, I like to see a church which doesn't have too many "one time visitors". After all, if you're supporting a ministry that neither brings in the lost or keeps them in once they've shown up, you're supporting a ministry that isn't being very effective in building the kingdom of God. Why not just pray about it with your wife and do what you feel is right?

[CCWoody]

***Where in the world are you that there are only two churches — Trona, California???***

Well, there is this AOG Pentecostal place down the street. A little further, there is "Word Aflame." The church of my youth is an ECUSA. She be downtown. I had once thought that a church with the name "Westminster" wouldn't be that bad. Hmmm! Aparently, it is not all in a name.

Sigh! So, I stand and fight. The only person who was on the verge of a full 5-Point confession left in the last bit of madness. But, I have a plan and am currently in "phase 1" of the execution. And I'm all outta bubblegum.

Woody.

[BibChr]

I'll add this simplistic (but, I think, hard-to-argue-with) doublet:

QUESTION: Why are there so many pathetic churches?

ANSWER: Because people keep going to them!

Dan

[jboot]

Thanks, brother. Your support is comforting to me. Sometimes, I really begin to think that I am alone, and perhaps a bit daft. As you know, it is very hard to be the square peg in a congregation of round ones. You get hit a lot harder, even though the hammer is the same. Of our friends, there is only one who has a reformed perspective. I'm not sure how many of the others would even understand why we left, even if it were explained to them. For the time being we are trying not to involve anyone else in our struggles.

Your advice is well taken, indeed. The Lord does not put us into this world to be comfortable, but to glorify Him. I have an inkling that this is a "training" experience that will be useful later. At any rate, it has me buried in the scriptures constantly.

[Alex Murphy]

The truth is, part of me is like Luke Skywalker. I want to believe that my church could "grow up", so to speak.

Believe me, JB, I know exactly what you mean. What I *can* reassure you with is the comfort that a Sovereign God can still cause your church to "grow up", so to speak, without you being there. And besides, if they do, you can always return :)

[jboot]

The elders are spiritual babes?

Yes indeed. They currently function as little more than tithing police who walk around telling everyone "I give God 10 percent and He gives me back 110 percent! You need to do the same." I had two of them in my discipleship class, but they bailed out almost immediately. I suspect it was the scripture memorization requirement that did them in. They also squirmed when we started reading out of Romans. It seems that someone told them that Romans is a "hard book" (I wonder who did that...) I am under consideration to be an elder myself, which gives you an idea how well they are being vetted.

In thier defense, they are all quite young, both physically and spiritually. They were chosen because they were willing when no one else was. Unfortunately, although they might be capable of deaconry, but the eldership fits them like dad's pants on a ten-year old.

[lockeliberty]

Believe me, I can empathize with your situation. In my situation, the nearest true Bible believing church is over 100 miles away. So I stand and fight. This is where God placed me. Remember, you can reach the lost in church as well as in the world. Don't make your decision based upon the fact that going to a true church will make you ~feel~ better. If it is God's will that you stay and suffer persecution for his name and reach the lost in your church then that is your duty. If it is God's will that you should be discipled under truth instead of peleganism then that is your duty. Pray continually.

God Bless