Who Really Wrote the Gospels?

*pounds head on desk*

It's not still wine!
That's the doctrine of consubstantiation, and is explicitly and emphatically rejected by the Catholic church.
It still comes from a vine, yes, but now it has been changed into something ELSE!

When you guys learn to read scripture and understand that a cup of 'my blood' that is still wine isn't actually blood.. you might get somewhere.

Yeah, somewhere like ... hell.

Howdy.

Don't pound your head on the desk for Havoc, or any man ;). See post 106 for how John 6 progresses. When someone does not understand scaramental literalism, it's eitehr because they can't or they won't. Either way, it's a problem.

When you guys learn to read scripture and understand that a cup of 'my blood' that is still wine isn't actually blood.. you might get somewhere.

When given a choice to believe and follow Scripture according to Havoc versus what Christ and the Apostles directed in Scripture, I'll choose the latter.

You know, as a Catholic, I instinctively debate this issue from the point of view. But one needn't believe in transubstantiation to make the case.

Suppose Christ tells me that I must eat pronouns and drink llama snot. Then he holds up snickerdoodle pies and says, "these are pronouns. Take and eat!" and he holds up motor oil and says, "This is llama snot. Take and drink."

You know what? I'm not gonna ask questions. I'm not going to debate WHY he called it llama snot. I'm not gonna ask how someone can eat a pronoun. I'm gonna do as he says.

So the doctors wondering why I drank motor oil and snickerdoodle pies (or how I survived it) might be perplexed. And Havoc might say I'm taking Jesus too literally. But here's the thing: Jesus called the Church his body. He commanded his disciples to be one, and to not have schism. He appointed them with the power to declare what is bound (law), and what is loosed (freedom). He gave them authority to declare what sins are held against us, and what is forgiven.

Havoc wants to say my doctrine make me like the Pharisees and the fallen disciples who departed from Christ. But who walked out on the Church which Christ founded? Who departed the Church which Christ called his own body?

Oh... Did you infer I was pounding MY head on a desk? *Chuckle* :^P :^D

Now you're referring to yourself in third person? "Smeagol likes hobbitses!" |^D!

LOL.

You should know that the Catholic Church has ALWAYS maintained that "a sacrament of desire" occurs

Not always, this developed as with other philosophies that became doctrine. Not to knit pick, just getting perspective. Your clergy defined an exception that they decided was ok from their practice. Scripture contrarwise states that the practice with regard to circumcision is useless because the heart is what matters. The same would apply to water baptism. Thusly, you require something that spiritually is not required. God has already made the universal exception, you guys have not.

This is the problem. You can't say that God waved what he does not require. Did the Apostles water baptise? Yes. Not always; but, they did do it. But Christ required baptism of the Spirit. The exemption you make for your sacrement is from the "reasoned" or rationalized view that God made some judgement that isn't noted. In other words you're making an exemption under the assumption that God acted a certain way that isn't otherwise explained in your philosophy. Rather big of you to Give God the benefit of a doubt after ruling against him initially. But that assumes you actually know what God was thinking - doesn't it.

But EVEN baptism in the spirit was done with a laying on of hands.

Was it really. Who layed hands on who at Pentecost?

If a person rejects the outward sign, that it is certain that he has rejected the body of Christ.

Kinda like the Gifts of the spirit - meaning if you haven't layed hands on someone recently and healed them, raised them from the dead or had a Prophecy that came true, ect, then you have rejected God.... Remember the gifts of the spirit are supposed to be present according to Christ in those that follow him.. each showing different Gifts.. Funny how that sword of outward signs tends to cut.

>>Scripture contrarwise states that the practice with regard to circumcision is useless because the heart is what matters. The same would apply to water baptism. >>

Where does it say, "The same would apply to water baptism"?

The disciples FORBADE the practice of circumcision (of adults, at least), but themselves performed baptism all the time. Incessantly. Everywhere they went.

>>Not always; but, they did do it. >>

Yes. Absolutely, positively always.

>> Was it really. Who layed hands on who at Pentecost? >>

Baptism is an annointment. Baptism of the spirit shows that we are chosen by Christ to evangelize. The apostles were Chosen by Jesus in the flesh. At Pentecost, they were empowered to evangelize. Since the apostles, now that the time is fulfilled, both occur at once.

>>Scripture contrarwise states that the practice with regard to circumcision is useless because the heart is what matters. The same would apply to water baptism. >>

Where does it say, "The same would apply to water baptism"?

The disciples FORBADE the practice of circumcision (of adults, at least), but themselves performed baptism all the time. Incessantly. Everywhere they went.

>>Not always; but, they did do it. >>

Yes. Absolutely, positively always.

>> Was it really. Who layed hands on who at Pentecost? >>

Baptism is an annointment. Baptism of the spirit shows that we are chosen by Christ to evangelize. The apostles were Chosen by Jesus in the flesh. At Pentecost, they were empowered to evangelize. Since the apostles, now that the time is fulfilled, both occur at once.

Note that even Paul was sent to Damascus.