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To: Allegra
Interesting that "Christian" and "Catholic" are separate choices. I am emphatically BOTH. They are in no way mutually exclusive.

Oh yes they are. Start with Mary. Catholics pray to Mary. Catholics pray to Saints. Catholics pray to dead people.

These are all false gods. The only way to The Father is through The Son.

the list is long. It's best to just refer to yourself as Catholic, as it is quite different than Christian.

58 posted on 12/25/2003 11:41:21 AM PST by NewLand (Howard Dean's campaign is not any safer since we found Saddam...)
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To: NewLand

Prayer is merely communication. If you talk to your Mom, is your Mom therefore a 'false god'? People chat with their deceased spouses. Are their spouses therefore 'false gods'?

If you are really interested in learning the truth about Catholic or Orthodox practices, then go talk with a Catholic or Orthodox priest.

65 posted on 12/25/2003 11:50:38 AM PST by Cultural Jihad
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To: NewLand
**Oh yes they are. Start with Mary.**

Are you saying that as a Protestant you do not believe in Mary being the mother of God? The mother of Christ? The first intercessor with her Son, the Lord, Jesus Christ? ]

Why should we not ask her to intercede for us with her Son, Jesus Christ? And yes, we also pray directly to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. So don't go off on that tangent.

Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you?? OK, then you have done exactly the same thing.
112 posted on 12/25/2003 2:10:05 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NewLand; american colleen; sinkspur; Lady In Blue; Salvation; Polycarp; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; ...
Catholics pray to Mary. Catholics pray to Saints. Catholics pray to dead people.

The phrase “praying to the saints” reflects this older usage, and it simply means “asking them for their prayers on our behalf.” Asking the saints to pray for us does not violate the unique mediatorship of Jesus any more than asking our friends to pray for us does. There is a sense in which all of us are called to be mediators. Think about it: When you pray for your friends, are you not going before God on their behalf? Do they not do the same for you? Is that not the very definition of “mediator”? In fact, the Bible verse where Paul tells us that there is “one mediator between God and man,” 1 Tim. 2:5, is in the context of intercessory prayer. Look at the four verses immediately preceding this one:

I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone – for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. (1 Tim 2:1-5).

What does this mean? Simply that the only way we have access to God is through Christ. He alone bridges the gap between God and man. However, He invites us (indeed, commands us) to participate in His own mediation through our intercessory prayers. Thus, if we can act as mediators, in a secondary sense, it is only because we pray in the name of Christ, the one mediator between God and man.

Like all Christians, Catholics believe in intercessory prayer. They ask their friends to pray for them, just as Protestants do. But a Catholic’s prayer chain is a bit longer than most Protesants’ because it includes those believers who are in heaven. Remember, the saints in heaven are not dead. In fact, they are more alive than we are. As Jesus reminded the Sadducees, God is “not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Matt. 22:32). We are all part of the Body of Christ, and that Body is not separated by death. God wants the whole Body of Christ, both in heaven and on earth, to intercede before Him. All Christians everywhere are to pray for one another. Put simply, if you can pray for me, then there’s no reason that St. Ignatius can’t pray for me too. And because the Bible tells us that “the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective” (Jas. 5:16), and we know that believers in heaven, having been cleansed of all sin, are perfectly righteous, it follows that we should covet their prayers on our behalf.

In the book of Revelation, John was given a glimpse of heaven, and he saw that the saints in heaven do indeed offer our prayers to God:

[T]he twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. (Rev. 5:8)

If we look back in history, we find that the early Christians understood that their brothers and sisters who preceded them into heaven could pray for them:

In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer].1

But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep.2

Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy.3

This is why today all historic Christian groups, except Protestants, include the whole Body of Christ in their prayer requests, not just that part of the Body that is still on earth.

1 Clement of Alexandria, Miscellanies, 7:12, A.D. 208.
2 Origen, Prayer, 11, A.D. 233.
3 Cyprian of Carthage, Letters, 56[60]:5, A.D. 253.

BTW, Catholics do pray directly to Jesus!

Catholic Ping - let me know if you want on/off this list


135 posted on 12/25/2003 4:01:36 PM PST by NYer
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To: NewLand
It's best to just refer to yourself as Catholic, as it is quite different than Christian.

And a merry Christmas to you too.

175 posted on 12/25/2003 8:10:47 PM PST by Barnacle (Dickens knew humanity and Divinity. He knew the rift between them and the paths that join them)
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