GRPL THREAD: Songs of Grace

[jude24]

Jars??? which song?

[Jean Chauvin]

We're discussing "And Can It Be", not "Come, Sinners, to the Gospel Feast"

Tell me, Corin, according to Arminian theology is ones heart "set free" before or after one "rose, went forth and followed Thee"?

xzins refused to answer this question. Perhaps you will?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Jean

[Corin Stormhands]

I was discussing the fact that you guys continually try to make Charles one of your own. Like I said, feel free to sing the hymn. Sing all our hymns. We offer them freely.

xzins has already explained verse four, as we have on numerous occasions.

[xzins]

Jean, I didn't refuse anything. I said I was observing DrSteve's request that non-grpl's exit this thread. I told you that if you wanted to discuss, we could do it via freep.

You said you disagreed with my understanding of Steve's intent. I said, "Nope, I think I'm right." You misconstrued that, too.

Now, if you wish to do this, we'll do it by freep. (And you are wrong about "And can it be." And OF Course we believe that one is saved before they follow. Don't you?)

[Revelation 911]

I think drsteve would welcome you with open arms if you followed his request to post only songs that "proclaim a sovereign God whose grace is un-leveraged."

patiently waiting for Limited attonement version by the "Limited (a)tone-ettes".

Amazing grace! How sweet the sound That saved a wretch like me! Some once were lost, but now some found; some blind, but now some see.

’Twas grace that taught some hearts to fear, And grace some fears relieved; How precious did that grace appear The hour some first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares, some have already come; ’Tis grace hath brought some safe thus far, And grace will lead some home (through a contrived 5 point system that glosses over infant "election").

The Lord has promised good to some, His Word some hopes secures; He will some Shield and Portion be, As long as life endures.

Yea, when this flesh and heart shall fail, And mortal life shall cease, some shall possess, within the veil, A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow, The sun forbear to shine; But God, Who called some here below, Shall be forever available to some.

When we’ve been there ten thousand years, Bright shining as the sun, We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise Than when some'd first begun.

.........ooops - sorry for the ping xzins

[drstevej]

EXPLANATION: I am not making Charles Wesley one of our own.

I AM saying that the verses I cited are a great metaphor for sovereign grace. Whether Charles Wesley rejected the doctrines of grace is irrelevant to my reason for including the hymn here.

Were you to run across these same words not knowing the author, I wonder if you would fawn over them or complain about them?

For me, this has been my favorite hymn for many years precisely because of the words.

[xzins]

In the spirit of cooperation, I'm attempting to abide by #12 and #26 where I was told to scram. Jean construes that to mean, "you can stay if you post songs they like," and that somehow means we can stay and argue about Charles Wesley.

But, then again, Jean thinks Charles Wesley is a Calvinist. Maybe we should post his song on Christian holiness. :>) (Yep...definitely 'calvinist.')

[xzins]

If you don't want me here, quit pinging me, doggonit!

:>)

You KNOW I'm gonna wade in on a Charles Wesley discussion, so it's simply not fair to bear-bait.

I'm glad you like the song. And even if you don't understand it, go ahead and post it.

I never undersood "In a gadda da vida" either. (Or Louie,Louie; or ANYTHING "rap"; or why someone once thought Britney Spears was a Christian musician.)

[drstevej]

***If you don't want me here, quit pinging me, doggonit!***

a reasonable request, no further pings.

BTW, "ina gadda da vidda" is chaucerian English meaning "the lie of the Garden of Eden." :-)

[rwfromkansas]

Actually, I remember reading that they were Reformed in an interview one time.

But, I did a search to think of what I was thinking of.

Here is one song that has some possibly Reformed bent to it, it seems to me. THe girl basically comes after Jesus does the calling.

Title: I want to fall in love with you

"Someday she'll trust Him and learn how to see Him
Someday He'll call her and she will come running
and fall in His arms and the tears will fall down and she'll pray,

"I want to fall in love with You" x4

Sitting silent wearing Sunday best
The sermon echoes through the walls
A great salvation through it calls to the people
who stare into nowhere, and can't feel the chains on their souls"

I notice a trend of God leading us in the lyrics of Jars....Hand especially. Not overtly Calvinist, but they focus a lot on God leading us and caring very intimately for our souls....taking action Himself for that.

There is no real song that just shouts "Calvinist" like with Caedmon's, but there does tend to be a subtle influence.

This Newsboys song speaks of an "irresistable" grace:

Title: Joy

"If life is water, I was dry as the Tucson dirt
If it's a gamble, I'd already lost my shirt
If it's a journey, I was dazed without a clue
I flipped a "U" back to the first love I ever knew

You give me joy that's unspeakable
And I like it
Your love for me is irresistible
I can't fight it
You carried the cross and took my shame
I believe it
You shine your light of amazing grace
I receive it

If life's a battle, the invasion is complete
If it's a rhythm, I have found the perfect beat
If it's a renaissance, I've got a new birthday
The world don't give it
And the world can't take it away

Bowed and broken, everything's new
All that I need, you're like water to seed
And how your love, rights everything wrong
In my weakness
You're ever stronger, you're pulling me back
Where I belong"

[rwfromkansas]

Cute, but John Newton, the song writer, was Calvinist.

Also, your attempt at beign funny really doesn't work when Amazing Grace only speaks of the writer's salvation, so it does not really have a clear unlimited/limited atonement perspective just based on that. But, we know it was a limited atonement perspective because that was the view of the song writer!

[xzins]

....eden.....

Bear Bait!

You are incorrigible! LOL!

[Uri’el-2012]

There are many scholars who believe that the Psalms are the history of His Chosen people from 1900 by year.

NAsbU Psalm 103:1 A Psalm of David.
Bless the LORD, O my soul, And all that is within me, bless His holy name.
2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, And forget none of His benefits;
3 Who pardons all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases;
4 Who redeems your life from the pit, Who crowns you with lovingkindness and compassion;
5 Who satisfies your years with good things, So that your youth is renewed like the eagle.
6 The LORD performs righteous deeds And judgments for all who are oppressed.
7 He made known His ways to Moses, His acts to the sons of Israel.
8 The LORD is compassionate and gracious, Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness.
9 He will not always strive with us, Nor will He keep His anger forever.
10 He has not dealt with us according to our sins, Nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
11 For as high as the heavens are above the earth, So great is His lovingkindness toward those who fear Him.
12 As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.
13 Just as a father has compassion on his children, So the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him.
14 For He Himself knows our frame; He is mindful that we are but dust.
15 As for man, his days are like grass; As a flower of the field, so he flourishes.
16 When the wind has passed over it, it is no more, And its place acknowledges it no longer.
17 But the lovingkindness of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, And His righteousness to children's children,
18 To those who keep His covenant And remember His precepts to do them.
19 The LORD has established His throne in the heavens, And His sovereignty rules over all.
20 Bless the LORD, you His angels, Mighty in strength, who perform His word, Obeying the voice of His word!
21 Bless the LORD, all you His hosts, You who serve Him, doing His will.
22 Bless the LORD, all you works of His, In all places of His dominion; Bless the LORD, O my soul!

a bondslave to the Christ

chuck

[jude24]

What "scholars" say that?

[Revelation 911]

Cute, but John Newton, the song writer, was Calvinist.

- yeah huh - I new that - just trying to be a little light hearted ........suggest you loosen the 5 point undies a bit and relax

I also understand the original in the context you cite -

again - relax just a little young fella

[Dr. Eckleburg]

1) DrSteve has covered this one by Iron Butterfly.

2) http://www.thesmokinggun.com/louie/louie.html

3) Rap has no meaning; just anger and finger-pointing, created to keep the masses stupid and distracted.

4) Britney Spears has always been programmed to become the sleazy twit she is today.

[rwfromkansas]

Also, Mercy Came Running by PCA trio Phillips, Craig, and Dean:

MERCY CAME RUNNING

Once there was a holy place
Evidence of God’s embrace
I can almost see mercy space
Pressed against the veil
Looking down with longing eyes
Mercy must have realized
That once His blood was sacrificed
That freedom would prevail

And as the sky grew dark
And the earth began to shake
With justice no longer in the way

Mercy came running like a prisoner set free
Passed all my failures to the point of my need
The sin that I carried was all I could see
And when I could not reach mercy, mercy came a running to me.

Once there was a broken heart. We are too human from the start.
All the years left it torn apart. Hope set it free.
Walls I never meant to build. Left this prisoner unfulfilled.
( ) even still. Since you’re far away.
I was bound by the chains from the wages of my sin.
Just when I felt like giving in

Mercy came running like a prisoner set free
Passed all my failures to the point of my need
The sin that I carried was all I could see
And when I could not reach mercy, mercy came a running to me.

Sometimes I still feel so, so far from where I really should be
He gently calls to my heart. Just to remind me

Mercy came running like a prisoner set free
Passed all my failures to the point of my need
The sin that I carried was all I could see
And when I could not reach mercy, mercy came a running to me
Mercy came a running like a prisoner set free
Passed all my failures to the point of my need
When the sin that I carried was all I could see
And when I could not reach mercy, mercy came a running
(Mercy came a running like a prisoner set free
Passed all my failures to the pint of my need
But the the sin that I carried was all I could see
And when I could not rech mercy, mercy came a running to me

[drstevej]

***Rap has no meaning; just anger and finger-pointing, created to keep the masses stupid and distracted.
***


Confederate Railroad Expresses it Well.

I HATE RAP

I hate rap, I hate rap
Couldn't drive me crazier with a map
Talk about a generation gap
I don't turn my cap, I don't grab my lap
I don't do like that 'cause I look like a sap
I hate rap, I hate rap
And it don't go good with beer on tap
I hate the beat, hate the rhythm
But I love that melody they put with 'em

I hate rap, I hate rap
One nerve left and it's about to snap
I'd rather hear a little Chihuahua yap
I don't walk that walk, I don't flap that flap
If I talked that talk my lips would chap
I hate rap, I hate rap
And it don't go good with beer on tap
I hate the beat, hate the rhythm
But I love that melody they put with 'em


I hate rap, I hate rap
It would rip Van Winkle from a nap
I'd rather be woke up with a slap
Than try to sleep through jive so cheap
They have to bleed a bunch of crap
I hate rap, I hate rap
And it don't go good with beer on tap
I hate the beat, hate the rhythm
But I love that melody they put with 'em

[A.J.Armitage]

I said a hip hop the hippie the hippie
to the hip hip hop, a you don't stop
the rock it to the bang bang boogie say up jumped the boogie
to the rhythm of the boogie, the beat

[The Grammarian]

Reprint of the Arminian Magazine's take on some Calvinist writer thinking that "And Can It Be" is essentially Calvinistic (And Can It Be?):

Charles Wesley wrote over 9000 hymns. He wrote his first hymn three days after he was saved and averaged one hymn every two days for the rest of his life. R. K. McGregor Wright wrote concerning “And Can It Be,” that it was “a rousing testimony to the wonder and power of God to save helpless sinners in bondage to sin. All Calvinists sing it with gratitude to God for this brother’s wonderful gift of expression and sensitivity to the reality of God’s sovereignty in releasing us from the bondage to our sin nature.”

Long my imprisoned spirit lay, Fast bound in sin and nature’s night. Thine eye diffused a quickening ray; I woke; the dungeon flamed with light. My chains fell off, my heart was free, I rose, went forth, and followed thee.

Wright concluded, “Here we have a truly regenerate Arminian describing his own conversion in fully Calvinistic terms” [No Place for Sovereignty, p. 118]. Yet it is also quite possible that Charles Wesley understood Wesleyan-Arminian theology better than modern Calvinists like Wright.

The imagery of “chains” and “prison” depict the bondage of sin. We cannot save ourselves. Nor do we have any desire for salvation. We are doubly bound both by our personal sins and by the darkness of our natural condition. This reference to our natural state is a reference to total depravity. Wesleyans affirm that man’s affections are alienated, man’s intellect is darkened, and that man’s will is perverted. We have lost the original righteousness in which Adam was created and we are deprived of the Holy Spirit. The Methodist Articles of Religion state

Original sin is the corruption of the nature of every man, that naturally is engendered of the offspring of Adam, whereby man is very far gone from original righteousness, and of his own nature inclined to evil, and that continually.

Thus far, Charles has stated nothing exclusive to Calvinism. Then he describes the prevenient grace through which the natural man is awakened. Notice that while his dungeon flamed with light, at this point in the conversion process, he was awakened, but still imprisoned.

According to Ephesians 5:13-14 the light of the gospel reveals our true condition. But to be awakened to our lost condition is not the same as being delivered from it. In “The Spirit of Bondage and Adoption,” John Wesley explained that the natural man neither fears nor loves God. He commits sin, more or less, day by day, yet is not troubled. But the awakened man fears God and sins unwillingly.

Now he truly desires to break loose from sin, and begins to struggle with it. But though he strive with all his might he cannot conquer; sin is mightier than he. He would fain escape; but he is so fast in prison that he cannot get forth. He resolves against sin, but yet sins on. . . . Such is the freedom of his will — free only to evil. . . . Thus he toils without end, repenting and sinning, and repenting and sinning again, till at length the poor sinful, helpless wretch is even at his wit's end, and can barely groan, "O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"

Yet it is Calvinism which has always asserted that this description from Romans 7:24 depicts Christianity. Calvin wrote in his Institutes of the Christian Religion

Paul takes his example from a regenerated man, that is, himself. He therefore says that he is held bound in miserable bondage, so that he cannot consecrate himself wholly to obedience to the divine law. Hence, he is compelled to exclaim with groaning: “Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body subject to death?” [4.15.12; See also 2.7.5; 3.9.4]

B. B. Warfield defended this view saying, “Though blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ, we are still in ourselves just ‘miserable sinners’: ‘miserable sinners’ saved by grace to be sure, but ‘miserable sinners’ still.” James Montgomery Boice also concluded that Romans 7 described the mature Christian.

On the other hand, John Wesley wrote that most who were accounted “good Christians” were contented to live and die in this awakened state, struggling with sin. The Wesleys preached, however, that the new birth brought deliverance from the bondage of sin. This salvation was portrayed by Charles Wesley in the lines

My chains fell off, my heart was free, I rose went forth, and followed thee.

Charles returned to this theme in “O For a Thousand Tongues”

He breaks the power of canceled sin, He sets the prisoner free.

While we agree with Calvinists that man is helplessly lost and cannot save himself, it is this freedom from sin that makes this hymn of Charles Wesley sound distinctly different than “fully Calvinistic terms.” Although Wright said he rejoices in this great hymn which expresses the release from bondage to our sin nature, nothing I have ever read in Calvinistic literature suggested any deliverance from the sin nature prior to death.

While I rejoice that Calvinists sing this great hymn, I would also encourage them to preach what they apparently enjoy singing. Since Wright has claimed “And Can It Be” as “fully Calvinistic,” I would also encourage him to incorporate another hymn by Charles Wesley which questions the Calvinistic caricature of God.

Thou can not mock the sons of men, Invite us to draw nigh, Offer thy grace to all, and then Thy grace to most deny!

Fury in god can dwell, God could an helpless world create, To thrust them into hell!

Doom them an endless death to die, From which they could not flee— No, Lord! Thine inmost bowels cry Against the dire decree!

Believe who will that human pain, Pleasing to God can prove: Let Moloch feast him with the slain, Our God, we know, is love.

Lord, if indeed, without a bound, Infinite love Thou art, The horrible decree confound, Enlarge thy people’s heart!

Ah! Who is as thy servants blind; So to misjudge their God! Scatter the darkness of their mind, And shed thy love abroad.

Give them conceptions worthy thee, Give them, in Jesus' face, Thy merciful design to see, Thy all-redeeming grace.