THE TRUE CHURCH

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/9170/RYLE2.HTM ^ | 11/4/03 | J.C. Ryle

[SoothingDave]

A few years ago a man in Alabama was found guilty for walking on the grass.There was no fine or imprisonment for the crime but he had been found guilty.The Supreme Court ruled that witout fine or penalty there is no law.Without fine or penalty there is no Doctrine being upheld.

The Supreme Court is irrelevant.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Simple solution intoduce them to the Risen Lord and quit waiting on them to die and possibly go to hell because they followed the checklist and thought they knew him.

I'm starting to wonder about your comprehension. Bishops who covered up for molesting priests surely knew they were doing somethign wrong. As did the priests.

If they had only, as you said, "followed the checklist" they would have found such use of the sexual gift to be sinful. What a better place this would be if they had only "followed the checklist" indeed.

Likewise, "progressive" bishops who defy the authority of the Church know exactly what they are doing. If they go to hell for it, you can't say they weren't warned.

SD

[Blessed]

But the analogy is.

[Havoc]

He didn't say anythign remotely like that. Lying is still a sin, ya know?

It's the logical extension of his statement Dave. Nothing more or less. He proffered what he said in reply and I accepted it as such. What he said begged the issue. We arent' unfamiliar with this issue either. Who here doesn't know that being labled by the church puts you out of favor with friends, family, ..anyone that is Catholic. But your own teaching creates the Quandry and we need only look to history to see that when the people had enough of the hypocricy and error of the church, they often were put to death for their responses to it - were chased to the ends of the earth, or revolted against the church and schizmed. Valla nearly went before the inquisition for telling the truth about the lies of Catholicism in his time. Not for being in error, wrong, etc; but, for exposing the truth.

It is built into your system. Cover it up, hide it and persecute or expel anyone that makes waves. What level of indignation do you think would exist in the 'church' if the law had not got involved in the recent priest scandals? Who do you think would know. One can be assured no one would have lost his job - much less gone to jail. That all came about by external pressure. Tell us a story Dave. I haven't heard really good fiction in a while.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

A few examples which could be greatly multiplied:

St. Matthew 5.19 He therefore that shall break one of these least commandments, and shall so teach men shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. But he that shall do and teach, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I tell you, that unless your justice abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

St. Matthew 19.17 ... But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness.
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

1 St. John 2.3 And by this we know that we have known him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He who saith that he knoweth him and keepeth not his commandments is a liar: and the truth is not in him.
5 But he that keepeth his word, in him in very deed the charity of God is perfected. And by this we know that we are in him.

Galatians 5.13 For you, brethren, have been called unto liberty. Only make not liberty an occasion to the flesh: but by charity of the spirit serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if you bite and devour one another: take heed you be not consumed one of another.
16 I say then: Walk in the spirit: and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the spirit: and the spirit against the flesh: For these are contrary one to another: so that you do not the things that you would.
18 But if you are led by the spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest: which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury,
20 Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects,
21 Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

[Blessed]

>I'm starting to wonder about your comprehension. Bishops who covered up for molesting priests surely knew they were doing somethign wrong. As did the priests.

If they had only, as you said, "followed the checklist" they would have found such use of the sexual gift to be sinful. What a better place this would be if they had only "followed the checklist" indeed.<

Maybe they did not Know it was wrong.If they don't know the risen Lord they are given over to the desires of their heart.They may even be fooled because they are following the "checklist" and think confessing to a God they don't know will save them. Do you hold them in such reverance that you would not share the Good News with them?

[connectthedots]

It's the logical extension of his statement Dave.

Logical extentions often aren't logical.

[polemikos]

There is no record from the early centuries that even implies Christians doubted the constant Catholic interpretation of the Real Presence.

You can't claim that it is in error because it was the universal belief and it existed BEFORE the NT was set.

The claim that it is merely symbolic is a novelty of the Reformation period. It can not be traced back.

[Blessed]

Do you really believe that Jesus would reject me from the Kingdom for the sole reason that I did not believe that The body and blood were literal?

[Jimmy Simon]

"There is no clear delineation in Scripture and in the end it seems to be just a personal opinion."



"The True Church", as depicted by the Holy Bible, has certain characteristics which are revealed throughout the scriptures. In order to grasp the full meaning of what the Bible teaches, one has to be willing to let go of all preconceived doctrines and dogmas that have been part of his upbringing. If one can not do this, at least for the duration of the study, then the teachings of the Most Holy Bible and one's deeply ingrained beliefs (which may not be the Truth), will clash. It would be similar to try to mix oil and water. They simply don't mix. This presentation is not met to be offensive nor against anyone from any particular denomination. I, myself, was at one time indoctrinated with many man-made doctrines and traditions. It is met to be strictly informative with many Biblical verses which all agree with one another and outside sources as historical documentation, etc. Opinions that are expressed are not necessarily Biblical nor my views. By no means do these references supersede the teachings of the Bible. However, historical events or facts can be very useful in support of the Scriptures. Let us pray, before beginning, that the Holy Spirit guide us in this study. Amen.

The Bible uses much symbolism (particularly in prophecy) and if one does not know what the symbolism means then of course it becomes very difficult to understand. Let's first begin by introducing Biblical terms and their definitions as given by the Bible. First let's look at the word "woman". As you will notice, a woman (particularly in prophecy but not always) referrs to a church. It could be the "True Church" or the "False Church". Let's read some verses:
Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the "woman", and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ".
This is a very important verse to remember. Notice this particular woman (God's True Church) keeps God's Commandments which is why the dragon (Satan) attacks her. Note the following 3 verses (there are many more) that describe this woman, who is pure and faithful to her husband's commandments, as the Lambs wife.
Revelation 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his "wife" hath made herself ready
Revelation 21
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a "bride" adorned for her husband.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the "bride", the Lamb's "wife".
2 Corinthians 11
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have "espoused you" to one husband, that I may present you as a "chaste virgin" to Christ.

Now let's look at another woman symbolised as a "whore or a prostitute". Again let's let the Bible define itself and look at a few of the countless Biblical verses referring to this. Notice how God referrs to a church who goes "against his commandments" as a "whore" and in some cases referrs to this as "fornication", and many places in the Holy Scriptures referrs to it as "nakedness".

Numbers 15
39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them ; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a "whoring":
40 That ye may "remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God".
Psalm 106
39 Thus were they "defiled with their own works", and went a "whoring" with their own "inventions".
40 Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against his people, insomuch that he abhorred his own inheritance.
Ezekiel 16
15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the "harlot" because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy "fornications" on every one that passed by; his it was.
16 And of thy garments thou didst take, and deckedst thy high places with divers colours, and "playedst the harlot" thereupon: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.
17 Thou hast also taken thy fair jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given thee, and "madest to thyself images of men", and didst "commit whoredom" with them,
25 Thou hast built thy high place at every head of the way, and hast made thy beauty to be abhorred, and hast opened thy feet to every one that passed by, and multiplied thy whoredoms.
26 Thou hast also "committed fornication" with the Egyptians thy neighbours, great of flesh; and hast increased thy "whoredoms", to provoke me to anger.
30 How weak is thine heart, saith the LORD GOD, seeing thou doest all these things, the work of an imperious "whorish woman";
32 But as a "wife that committeth adultery, which taketh strangers instead of her husband"!
36 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy "nakedness" ( nakedness symbolically means not keeping God's commandments) discovered through thy "whoredoms" with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy abominations, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;
37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy "nakedness" unto them, that they may see all thy "nakedness".
38 And I will "judge" thee, as "women that break wedlock" and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy.

Ezekiel 23:18
So she discovered her "whoredoms", and discovered her "nakedness": then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister.
Ezekiel 23:29
And they shall deal with thee hatefully, and shall take away all thy labour, and shall leave thee naked and bare: and the "nakedness" of thy whoredoms shall be discovered, both thy lewdness and thy "whoredoms".

To the contrary, one who is not "naked" and "has his garments" in many verses means "one who follows God's commandments". Although it does not specifically say that in many verses, but if one reads the whole chapter in context, he will often see that it referrs to God's Commandments. In some Bibles, Revelation 22:14 says " his Commandments" and in others it says "his garments".
Isaiah 61:10
I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the "garments of salvation," he hath covered me with the "robe of righteousness", as a "bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments", and as a "bride adorneth" herself with her jewels.

Revelation 16:15
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his "garments", lest he walk "naked", and they see his shame.

Obviously, it would be ridiculous, in the above verses to believe that God requires special literal clothing to be saved. This is of course symbolic of the bride (true church) clothed and adorned with the "commandments and obeyance" of her husband (Christ). Of course, I can not post all the verses, due to the rules of this forum, but if one investigates the words "garments" and "robes" throughout the scriptures, he will find this to be true.

I have much more information, directly from the Holy Scriptures and supported by historical documentation, but I do not want to abuse the rules of this forum. Keeping in mind the importance of God's Biblical commandments in Exodus 20:3-17, read verses 4 and 5, and verses 8-11. Compare these with the Catechism and the following web pages.

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/part3_2.html

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/chalng.htm

http://biblelight.net/bssb-1443-1444.htm

http://reluctant-messenger.com/council-of-laodicea.htm (Canon XXIX)

http://yahweh.com/pages/pw3_96/1_396pg2.shtml The second Council of Nicea...D. 787, was called to establish image worship in the church. This council is recorded in Ecclesiastical Annals. by Baronius, Vol. 9, pp. 391-407. (Antwerp, 1612); and Charles J. Hefele, A History of the Councils of the Church From the Original Documents, book 18, chapter 1, secs. 332, 333; chapter 2, secs. 345-352 (T. and T. Clark ed., 1896), Vol. 5, pp. 260-304, and 342-372.
J. Mendham, in The Seventh General Council, the Second of Nicea. Introduction, Pgs, iii-vi, says - "The worship of images . . . was one of those corruptions of Christianity which crept into the church stealthily and almost without notice or observation. This corruption did not, like other heresies, develop itself at once, for in that case it would have met with decided censure and rebuke.

God Bless You and guide you in your study of the Bible.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Have you ever considered looking at these verses from the angle that the speaker means that you do these things BECAUSE Christ has saved you and not from the angle that they meant you do it to get saved or stay saved?

Do you do things your parents want you to Because they loved you and you loved them or do you do them so they will love you?

Becky

[Claud]

I'm a little confused. You began your reply to me with:

Scripture never says the Kingdom of Heaven is "the church"

As if to say that that's not what the Matt 13 parables were referring to, and then you ended with:

Those Parables are about the sorting out of the visible church at the end of time

Which is essentially what I'm saying. This parable cannot be the Kingdom *in heaven* because only the saved are in heaven. And it cannot mean a "Church of the Elect" for the same reason. On the other hand, what else besides a Church could "kingdom of heaven" mean? I do not see how "kingdom of Heaven" here can be taken in any other sense BUT the visible Church on earth. But if you have any ideas I'd like to hear them.

Christ's conception here is of a visible Church in which there are saved and unsaved. That is diametrically opposed to Ryle's vision of a Church being an invisible entity of the Saved. Ryle says: "Once enrolled in the lists of this Church, sinners are safe for eternity; they are never cast away." I cannot square that with Christ's words in the Gospel.

[jjm2111]

One other thing. I'm not trying to be a Wisenheimer, but

"Masons are an occult religion. Rites of initiation at higher levels are directly blasphemous and sacreligious.... If it's a secret society, how would one know if the rites of initiation are directly blasphemous and sacreligious?

[SoothingDave]

Maybe they did not Know it was wrong.

That's not for us to judge, is it? Someone in that position certainly should know such things.

If they don't know the risen Lord they are given over to the desires of their heart.

True. There is no guarantee that any given priest or bishop is "saved."

They may even be fooled because they are following the "checklist" and think confessing to a God they don't know will save them.

Once again, if they truly tried to follow "the checklist" they would try to avoid their sin. If that is what they did, but they failed, we are not in a position to judge. If they knew it was wrong, but did it anyway, that is when we know they will be damned.

None of this has anythign to do with confession. One can claim to be "born again" and still sin, struggle with sin. Or one can claim to be born again but have no intention of giving up sin. We are not in a position to judge.

The point is there are empty forms of piety in any religion, even yours.

Do you hold them in such reverance that you would not share the Good News with them?

Why would you assume that they don't know? To answer your question, no I wouldn't hold a famous sinner in such "reverance."

SD

[dangus]

Actually, the fact alone that they are a secret society with non-Christian oaths makes them immoral, but there has been enough leakage that one can get a fairly accurate impression of them without turning to the tinfoil-hats crowd.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Have you ever considered looking at these verses from the angle that the speaker means that you do these things BECAUSE Christ has saved you and not from the angle that they meant you do it to get saved or stay saved?

Do you ever stop reading your own prejudices into the posts of others? Did I ever say keeping the commandments saves you?

[Havoc]

Especially when conviction sets in lol

[Claud]

We all know there are Apostate/heretical churches that teach false doctrine: a true pure Church against a false "harlot" Church. Fine. But I'm asking a different question: how do we know what that True Church looks like? Your post says it is "revealed throughout Scripture"..that it will match the teachings of the Holy Bible. Very well.

So again, how does Ryle's supposedly "Scriptural" conception of the Church as an invisible collection of the saved jive with Christ's conception of the "kingdom of heaven" in Matt 13 which clearly contains both the saved and the unsaved (see my post 292).

You say the nature of the True Church is revealed in Scripture. I think the same thing. Yet you think Scripture "reveals" something which I can't find there, and I further maintain that Ryle's conception is *in itself* a preconceived notion which is not found in Scripture.

[Havoc]

Round and round we go. And age of belief still doesn't give it authority, lest we all knuckle under to the Chinese communists.. See how quickly your logic fails. It failed before I pointed it out by the way.

[SoothingDave]

And age of belief still doesn't give it authority, lest we all knuckle under to the Chinese communists

In your world, have the Chinese Communists been in power since before the Roman Empire?

Them who have ears, let them hear. Just yesterday we were hearing how many Protestants adhere to the creeds and believe int he Communion of Saints. Today we see what that means in practice. There is a disdain of history and no interest shown, nor creedence given, to what Christians in the past believed or taught. If I claimed to believe in the saints, I would want to know what they believed, and would not just assume that the way I read the Bible must have been what they believed.

Then again, there is danger in being deep in history.

SD