Virgin Mother of God

Companion to the Summa ^ | 1950 | Walter Farrell, O.P.

[AlguyA]

"He was sort of a special case, seeing as he was not created, he always was.

Whoa. Hold on there, cowboy. You provided scripture proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that "all" had sinned. Now, you're creating an exception. The verse doesn't read "all have sinned, with the exception of Jesus who was sort of a special case, seeing as he was not created, he always was." The verse reads, "all have sinned."

What's the matter, don't you believe the Bible? Using your criteria, just the black and white words of Paul, no exception for Jesus is allowed. Ergo, reading the Bible as you do, then you must believe Jesus sinned, since all have sinned.

[Gamecock]

What's the matter, don't you believe the Bible? Using your criteria, just the black and white words of Paul, no exception for Jesus is allowed. Ergo, reading the Bible as you do, then you must believe Jesus sinned, since all have sinned.

Try to keep up Al. Scripture interprets scripture. You need to look beyond 1 verse. This is what gets people in trouble. They focus on 1 verse and next thing they know they are selling pencils in airports.

Try reading the verse in context:

Romans 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

This passage sets Christ apart from "all."

[irishtenor]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Nice try.

[AlguyA]

Oh but irish, I am keeping up. You miss my point.

What you have now done is move beyond the text. In pointing out the verse seperates Jesus from all, you are now offering your own interpretation. You have no scripture where Paul tells you to do this, you're doing it yourself.

And BTW, of course I agree with your interpretation of this scripture on this point.

But look at where we are, now. We both agree all doesn't always mean "all" when used in scripture.

Now I could do the normal thing here, i.e. cite all the scriptures where "all" obviously doesn't mean "all." But to what purpose? I've proved my point.

You're feeble attempt to juxtapose the Bible against the Dogma promulgated by Jesus' Church lies in tatters.

Which, BTW, is to be expected. irish, think about something for a minute. The same Church which gives us the doctrines on Mary also developed the canon. Now, do you think it logical the same people would include in scripture elements which point blank overturned the same doctrines in which they expressed belief?

[Gamecock]

***The same Church which gives us the doctrines on Mary also developed the canon.***


Ahhh, and that would be the same church that gave us indulgences and child molesting priests, right?

[AlguyA]

"Ahhh, and that would be the same church that gave us indulgences and child molesting priests, right?"

In a manner of speaking, yes. It's a wheat and tares thing. Scriptural, don't you know. Why, are you claiming there are no tares in your church?

[irishtenor]

That same church also gave us indulgences. Your sins are forgiven if you pay enough.

[Gamecock]

No. But the majority of RCs here will deny it exists in the RCs. Most get quite defensive.

That is why we don't worship individuals, dead or alive, but Christ.

BTW, would you consider this behaviour wheat or tare:

[irishtenor]

No, he's claiming that there are no tares in the Bible. I agree. The Bible is correct, the church is in error.

[AlguyA]

"That same church also gave us indulgences. Your sins are forgiven if you pay enough."

Really? And where did "the Church" authoritatively say this? In which catechism? At which Council?

[Frumanchu]

think about something for a minute. The same Church which gives us the doctrines on Mary also developed the canon.

The Church that gave us the canon may be the same intitutionally that gave us your Marian doctrines, but they are certainly not the same theologically.

BTW, what you've shown is not that Protestants read their presuppositions into Scripture, but that Catholics apparently do not even have the capacity for reading comprehension apart from Rome.

[irishtenor]

You and all of your kind have missed my point. Mary is a sinner, as is every other human being. I have asked repeatedly for any scripture that show praying to Mary, praying to the saints, praying the rosary, etc. No one has come forth with any scripture whatsoever to show that this is acceptable. None. (Hint: that's because there aren't any)

[irishtenor]

What do you think Luther was raging against? It was the common practice in the Roman Catholic church to pay indulgences to the Pope for forgiveness of sins.

[AlguyA]

You know, I've thought about this quite a bit. On the one hand, the worst I would say is it may be imprudent. On the other hand, I suspect there were many who considered Paul's entrance into a pagan temple to spread the Gospel imprudent.

Also, there's this. The Pope, when he comes to America, kisses the soil of the nation right after he lands. Of course, this is the soil of a nation drenched with the blood of 40 million innocent souls. I suppose we could become involved in some complex calculus, trying to determine whether the Koran has killed more people than this nation, but that seems difficult.

Rather, I suspect in both instances, the Holy Father is expressing his love for the fallen, even in their fallen state -just as I'm sure Jesus loves even the Muslims committed as they are to apostasy and America committed as it is to murder, even while they are doing those things.

[Frumanchu]

On the other hand, I suspect there were many who considered Paul's entrance into a pagan temple to spread the Gospel imprudent.

Paul entered the pagan temple. He didn't bow before its idols.

Perhaps your pope was signifying his belief that its time to add to the canon. Then their institutional ignorance would be a non-issue.

[Gamecock]

OK, that is truly a well thought out, balanced answer. My compliments.

Now, consider that photo in light of this quote from the RC catechism:


841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

[AlguyA]

'I have asked repeatedly for any scripture that show praying to Mary, praying to the saints, praying the rosary, etc.

Hey, I showed you those twenty four elders. You just refuse to see them.

[Romulus]

Infallibility and impeccability are two different things. I wonder that you seem to deny the power of the Holy Spirit to work through sinful men -- much less the prophetic significance of his doing so.

[irishtenor]

We don't pray to them, we pray to God. Show me where it says we pray to them. It's a simple concept, really. We pray to God, he hears our prayers, he acts according to his will. No middleman.

[irishtenor]

We don't pray to them, we pray to God. Show me where it says we pray to them. It's a simple concept, really. We pray to God, he hears our prayers, he acts according to his will. No middleman.