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Patton: The Glory of War and its Limitations
Toogood Reports ^ | 28 September 2003 | Nicholas Stix

Posted on 09/26/2003 8:04:35 AM PDT by mrustow

"Das Geheimnis Pattons ist die Vergangenheit," says a captain in the German high command. "Patton's secret is the past." The secret of the man and the movie.

I rented the 1970 film, Patton, last week, and saw it three times with my son. A fellow’s got to get his money’s worth. It made quite an impression on yours truly, though I’m not so sure about Richard, who is three-and-a-half years old, and is currently much more passionate about James and the Giant Peach.

The moment Patton opens, you know this will be like no other war movie. General George S. Patton Jr. (1885-1945) stands before the biggest American flag I have ever seen, wearing a highly buffed, black helmet and a uniform suggesting the 18th or 19th century, weighed down with medals domestic and foreign, bearing not one but two ivory-handled revolvers, and holding a riding crop. As a bugler plays reveille, the camera focuses on each feature in turn. And then Scott lets loose with the now famous monologue, which was actually the last thing the filmmakers came up with.

"Now I want you to remember that no bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country…!"

Atten ... tion!

Consider the time. Patton was made in 1969; America was mired in a highly unpopular war in Vietnam, the draft was about to be ended, and America was preparing to pull her fighting men out of the first military defeat in her history. And here was this spirit from the past, saying that "Americans love to fight," and "will not tolerate a loser"!

Early in Patton, we hear the sound of distant trumpets, as in 1943, the general surveys the ancient battlefield where Carthage (modern name, Tunis, in Tunisia) was burnt to the ground by the Romans in 146 B.C.

Patton is standing near the Kasserine Pass in Tunisia, where over 1,000 American G.I.s were butchered in their first encounter with the German Wehrmacht, in the form of Field Marshal Erwin Rommel's Afrika Korps. "I was there," he tells his assistant. In 146 B.C.

Is he mad or is he teasing? The answer is, a little of both.

He quotes part of a lush, romantic poem on the eternal warrior – he is the poet. An American poet-general? We are dealing with a man singular in the annals of 20th century American warfare. "I hate the 20th century," the old "cavalry horse officer" remarks.

Through a Glass, Darkly
George S. Patton, Jr.

Through the travail of the ages,
Midst the pomp and toil of war,
Have I fought and strove and perished
Countless times upon this star.

In the form of many people
In all panoplies of time
Have I seen the luring vision
Of the Victory Maid, sublime.

I have battled for fresh mammoth,
I have warred for pastures new,
I have listened to the whispers
When the race trek instinct grew.

I have known the call to battle
In each changeless changing shape
From the high souled voice of conscience
To the beastly lust for rape.

I have sinned and I have suffered,
Played the hero and the knave;
Fought for belly, shame, or country,
And for each have found a grave.

I cannot name my battles
For the visions are not clear,
Yet, I see the twisted faces
And I feel the rending spear.

Perhaps I stabbed our Savior
In His sacred helpless side.
Yet, I've called His name in blessing
When after times I died.

In the dimness of the shadows
Where we hairy heathens warred,
I can taste in thought the lifeblood;
We used teeth before the sword.

While in later clearer vision
I can sense the coppery sweat,
Feel the pikes grow wet and slippery
When our Phalanx, Cyrus met.

Hear the rattle of the harness
Where the Persian darts bounced clear,
See their chariots wheel in panic
>From the Hoplite's leveled spear.

See the goal grow monthly longer,
Reaching for the walls of Tyre.
Hear the crash of tons of granite,
Smell the quenchless eastern fire.

Still more clearly as a Roman,
Can I see the Legion close,
As our third rank moved in forward
And the short sword found our foes.

Once again I feel the anguish
Of that blistering treeless plain
When the Parthian showered death bolts,
And our discipline was in vain.

I remember all the suffering
Of those arrows in my neck.
Yet, I stabbed a grinning savage
As I died upon my back.

Once again I smell the heat sparks
When my Flemish plate gave way
And the lance ripped through my entrails
As on Crecy's field I lay.

In the windless, blinding stillness
Of the glittering tropic sea
I can see the bubbles rising
Where we set the captives free.

Midst the spume of half a tempest
I have heard the bulwarks go
When the crashing, point blank round shot
Sent destruction to our foe.

I have fought with gun and cutlass
On the red and slippery deck
With all Hell aflame within me
And a rope around my neck.

And still later as a General
Have I galloped with Murat
When we laughed at death and numbers
Trusting in the Emperor's Star.

Till at last our star faded,
And we shouted to our doom
Where the sunken road of Ohein
Closed us in its quivering gloom.

So but now with tanks a'clatter
Have I waddled on the foe
Belching death at twenty paces,
By the star shell's ghastly glow.

So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

And I see not in my blindness
What the objects were I wrought,
But as God rules o'er our bickerings
It was through His will I fought.

So forever in the future,
Shall I battle as of yore,
Dying to be born a fighter,
But to die again, once more.

(Note the similarities to German Romantic notions, as well as to Nietzsche’s notion of an “eternal return of the same,” and later, Mick Jagger's lyrics to "Sympathy for the Devil." In the movie, Scott quotes only the poem's highlights.)

Patton refers to himself as a “prima donna,” but as director Franklin Schaffner, scenarists Francis Ford Coppola (yes, before he became Hollywood's greatest active director, he was its greatest active screenwriter!) and Edmund H. North, and star George C. Scott portray him, “megalomaniac” is more like it. Before heading in to battle, as he stands before his mirror, his Negro soldier-valet carefully placing his begoggled helmet on his head, he more closely resembles a Roman general (or Il Duce) than a modern officer. And in a notorious, true incident, upon encountering a shell-shocked soldier, he slaps the man silly, threatens to shoot him, and is almost cashiered by Ike. But he was our greatest 20th century field commander.

(The valet is played by a trim, youthful-looking, fifty-year-old Jimmy Edwards. Unfortunately, Edwards (Home of the Brave, Bright Victory, The Member of the Wedding, The Manchurian Candidate), whose career was limited by racism, died of a massive heart attack before the film's release. He went through hell, paving the way so that the likes of Sidney Poitier and Denzel Washington could become screen icons, while he was forgotten.)

The making of Patton clearly influenced Coppola, when the latter made Apocalypse Now. At one point on a battlefield, Patton smells the smoke of spent gunpowder and says, "I love it, God help me, I do love it. I love it more than my life." This scene clearly anticipated the scene in Apocalypse Now, where Robert Duvall's Lt. Col. Kilgore famously says, "I love the smell of napalm in the morning. It smells like ... victory."

In Patton's brutality, his talk of never giving up an inch of land (Hitler said the very same thing.), in his contempt for civilian authority, in his joy at killing, he comes across as a fascist or Nazi, which is how he was often depicted at the time. Amazingly, the movie is able to glorify this man, while maintaining a posture of cold sentimentality towards him. Schaffner loves Patton, but without illusions. Patton wasn't "larger than life" - no one is - he WAS life, or at least the martial, intellectual, and aesthetic lives, in all their fullness.

General George S. Patton Jr. had a sense of destiny; his purpose in life was to do great things on the field of battle. And as he observes, only once in a thousand years, do the heavens so align that a soldier has such an opportunity to change history.

Fortunately, in the movie as in life, Patton had humble, ordinary Joe – at least as Bradley tells it – Gen. Omar Bradley (the last five-star, General of the Army, in the history of the U.S. Army) as a counterweight. Bradley is played by Karl Malden with a restraint and self-effacing humor that perfectly contrast Patton/Scott's bravado.

Jerry Goldsmith's score has just the right blend of the elegiac (distant trumpets) and the pompous yet playful (fanfare of horns and flutes), corresponding to the tempers of Patton's personality.

While almost three hours long, Patton does not flag, and could easily have been longer.

The DVD, which came out in 1997, has a lovely documentary on the making of Patton, as well as Jerry Goldsmith's rousing score. However, I do not believe the claim of the movie's late director, Franklin Schaffner, that he did not make Patton in response to the anti-war movement. Producer Frank McCarthy was a retired general, and many generals felt that the media lost Vietnam, the original “quagmire,” for us. Recall that it was Walter Cronkite himself - Uncle Walter - who portrayed an American victory against the North Vietnamese Tet Offensive, in January, 1968, as a defeat, and thus turned the tide of domestic support against the military. In Patton, the media is depicted in despicable terms – if Patton wanted to be sure something leaked out, all he had to do was tell reporters it was "off the record" – and one reporter is shown personally insulting him.

Schaffner’s Patton will evoke different reactions from different observers. For instance, during the German occupation, he complains to reporters that Truman had stopped the war too early. We’d been fighting the wrong guys, and needed to march on to Moscow, since we were going to end up fighting the Russians, anyway. The problem with politicians, he said, was that they were always ending wars too soon, leaving the soldiers another war to fight.

Patton’s criticism of our de-nazification policy proved his undoing, and resulted in his being removed as commander of the Third Army, and placed in the military equivalent of purgatory. A few months later, in Germany, he died as a result of a car accident, at the age of 60.

Some people thought him mad, for wanting to fight the Russians (and for believing we should have been fighting them, rather than the Germans), but millions thought he was right. The notion that we were fighting the wrong guys echoes today among those who suggest our enemies are the Jews of Israel, rather than radical Islam. As for Patton’s notion of premature peace, that sounds great in theory, and today evokes Gulf War I, when we chased Saddam out of Kuwait, but let him escape back to Iraq. Many people forget, however, that liberating Kuwait alone was the deal that George H.W. Bush had cut, in order to put together the so-called coalition that fought Saddam at the time. In practice, the desire to tie up all loose ends would have an army always advancing, until it was ultimately vanquished, or its soldiers rebelled against, and shot its generals.

Patton: "For over a thousand years, Roman conquerors returning from the wars enjoyed the honor of a triumph – a tumultuous parade.... A slave stood behind the conqueror, holding a golden crown, and whispering in his ear a warning: that all glory is fleeting."

America’s empire, er, nation-builders, would do well to hearken to that warning, though I’m sure they won’t. But then, even Patton contradicted himself – a general that does not know how to make peace, will be brought low, one way or another.

The conflicts that Patton had with desk generals in World War II, have if anything taken over military life in the intervening years. While cooler heads must prevail at the top – recall General MacArthur’s desire, during the Korean War, to nuke Manchuria – the American military seems to have little room today for great battlefield commanders. It is increasingly run by lawyers and desk generals. (Remember the time our boys had Mullah Omar in their sights, but the lawyers said no?) We won in Iraq through an overwhelming advantage in men and materiel, against a woefully inferior opponent. Had we been up against one of history’s great military machines, such as Hitler’s Reichswehr and Luftwaffe, we would have lost.

Just as Patton was unable to savor his success, so too George C. Scott, the rare actor who could carry a film on his shoulders, was unable to build on his success as Patton. After a series of brilliant performances culminated in his well-deserved Oscar for Patton, Scott, a violent drunk, went downhill until his death in 1999. He still got steady work, but the work was largely undistinguished. But for one moment, he tasted of that perfection that comes when the stars align, and a great role is delivered into the hands of just the right actor at just the right moment in his career. It was George C. Scott's destiny to play Patton.

And what of America’s destiny? Is it to crush one enemy after another, and reshape the world, a la the neo-conservative (and Patton’s) vision? Is it, alternatively, to pull all of her troops out of every foreign outpost, and renounce her longtime ally, Israel, a la the paleoconservative vision; or failing that, to bring about the paleoconservative nightmare, causing all of world Islam to join against her in a holy war, and destroy her through a thousand September 11s?

I don’t see either vision or nightmare as America’s destiny. Although America is the world’s great power, a program of endless wars would bankrupt our economy and lead to revolution or the collapse of our political system. Americans will not tolerate a garrison state. And if such a state did not collapse from within, it would call forth a grand alliance of nations – likely making for strange bedfellows, as did our World War II alliance – whose militaries are not crippled by bureaucrats, lawyers, and feminists.

But since America is the world’s great power, she cannot proceed from paleoconservatism’s Switzerland fantasy. And since we are Number One, we will automatically have enemies – Islamic nations and terrorist organizations, and the opportunistic Europeans and nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) who carry water for them – simply because of that fact. And the oceans framing America no longer protect her from attack. Isolationism is not an option.

Meanwhile, trying to act as though we were not the most powerful nation, and seeking to live out the fantasies, beloved by feminists, that we could win wars either by pushing buttons from a distance, or by using emasculated fighting men as social workers, is what led Osama bin Laden to conclude we are a paper tiger.

And so, we must take a constructive course that protects our vital interests, and makes our enemies fear us. Foreign affairs has always been, and always will be, the state of nature, the war of all against all. That state can be seen in terms of individual nations, or of blocs of allies and enemies. And so, we must periodically take the war to some of our enemies, to keep them from our doorstep, and so that others may see what lies in store for them, should they underestimate our resolve. But we must also be disciplined in our war making.

All glory may be fleeting, but there is no date set in stone for the demise of America.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Germany; Government; Israel; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Russia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: americanempire; carthage; ccrm; dwightdeisenhower; francisfordcoppola; franklinschaffner; frankmccarthy; gengeorgepatton; israel; mediabias; militaryhistory; neoconservatism; omarbradley; paleoconservatism; patton; romanempire; tunis; vietnam; waltercronkite; worldwarii; zionist
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1 posted on 09/26/2003 8:04:36 AM PDT by mrustow
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2 posted on 09/26/2003 8:12:10 AM PDT by mrustow (no tag)
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3 posted on 09/26/2003 8:13:00 AM PDT by mrustow (no tag)
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4 posted on 09/26/2003 8:14:16 AM PDT by mrustow (no tag)
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5 posted on 09/26/2003 8:14:55 AM PDT by mrustow (no tag)
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6 posted on 09/26/2003 8:15:43 AM PDT by mrustow (no tag)
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7 posted on 09/26/2003 8:16:20 AM PDT by mrustow (no tag)
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8 posted on 09/26/2003 8:16:57 AM PDT by mrustow (no tag)
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9 posted on 09/26/2003 8:17:38 AM PDT by mrustow (no tag)
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To: mrustow
Thanks for the heads up!
10 posted on 09/26/2003 8:21:34 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: mrustow
The Speech Somewhere in England June 5th, 1944

"Be seated."

Men, this stuff that some sources sling around about America wanting out of this war, not wanting to fight, is a crock of bullshit. Americans love to fight, traditionally. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle.

You are here today for three reasons. First, because you are here to defend your homes and your loved ones. Second, you are here for your own self respect, because you would not want to be anywhere else. Third, you are here because you are real men and all real men like to fight. When you, here, every one of you, were kids, you all admired the champion marble player, the fastest runner, the toughest boxer, the big league ball players, and the All-American football players. Americans love a winner. Americans will not tolerate a loser. Americans despise cowards. Americans play to win all of the time. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost nor will ever lose a war; for the very idea of losing is hateful to an American.

You are not all going to die. Only two percent of you right here today would die in a major battle. Death must not be feared. Death, in time, comes to all men. Yes, every man is scared in his first battle. If he says he's not, he's a liar. Some men are cowards but they fight the same as the brave men or they get the hell slammed out of them watching men fight who are just as scared as they are. The real hero is the man who fights even though he is scared. Some men get over their fright in a minute under fire. For some, it takes an hour. For some, it takes days. But a real man will never let his fear of death overpower his honor, his sense of duty to his country, and his innate manhood.

Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best and it removes all that is base. Americans pride themselves on being He Men and they ARE He Men. Remember that the enemy is just as frightened as you are, and probably more so. They are not supermen.

All through your Army careers, you men have bitched about what you call "chicken shit drilling." That, like everything else in this Army, has a definite purpose. That purpose is alertness. Alertness must be bred into every soldier. I don't give a fuck for a man who's not always on his toes. You men are veterans or you wouldn't be here. You are ready for what's to come. A man must be alert at all times if he expects to stay alive. If you're not alert, sometime, a German son-of-an-asshole-bitch is going to sneak up behind you and beat you to death with a sockful of shit! There are four hundred neatly marked graves somewhere in Sicily, all because one man went to sleep on the job. But they are German graves, because we caught the bastard asleep before they did.

An Army is a team. It lives, sleeps, eats, and fights as a team. This individual heroic stuff is pure horse shit. The bilious bastards who write that kind of stuff for the Saturday Evening Post don't know any more about real fighting under fire than they know about fucking! We have the finest food, the finest equipment, the best spirit, and the best men in the world. Why, by God, I actually pity those poor sons-of-bitches we're going up against. By God, I do.

My men don't surrender, and I don't want to hear of any soldier under my command being captured unless he has been hit. Even if you are hit, you can still fight back. That's not just bull shit either. The kind of man that I want in my command is just like the lieutenant in Libya, who, with a Luger against his chest, jerked off his helmet, swept the gun aside with one hand, and busted the hell out of the Kraut with his helmet. Then he jumped on the gun and went out and killed another German before they knew what the hell was coming off. And, all of that time, this man had a bullet through a lung. There was a real man!

All of the real heroes are not storybook combat fighters, either. Every single man in this Army plays a vital role. Don't ever let up. Don't ever think that your job is unimportant. Every man has a job to do and he must do it. Every man is a vital link in the great chain. What if every truck driver suddenly decided that he didn't like the whine of those shells overhead, turned yellow, and jumped headlong into a ditch? The cowardly bastard could say, 'Hell, they won't miss me, just one man in thousands.' But, what if every man thought that way? Where in the hell would we be now? What would our country, our loved ones, our homes, even the world, be like? No, Goddamnit, Americans don't think like that. Every man does his job. Every man serves the whole. Every department, every unit, is important in the vast scheme of this war. The ordnance men are needed to supply the guns and machinery of war to keep us rolling. The Quartermaster is needed to bring up food and clothes because where we are going there isn't a hell of a lot to steal. Every last man on K.P. has a job to do, even the one who heats our water to keep us from getting the 'G.I. Shits.'

Each man must not think only of himself, but also of his buddy fighting beside him. We don't want yellow cowards in this Army. They should be killed off like rats. If not, they will go home after this war and breed more cowards. The brave men will breed more brave men. Kill off the Goddamned cowards and we will have a nation of brave men. One of the bravest men that I ever saw was a fellow on top of a telegraph pole in the midst of a furious fire fight in Tunisia. I stopped and asked what the hell he was doing up there at a time like that. He answered, 'Fixing the wire, Sir.' I asked, 'Isn't that a little unhealthy right about now?' He answered, 'Yes Sir, but the Goddamned wire has to be fixed.' I asked, 'Don't those planes strafing the road bother you?' And he answered, 'No, Sir, but you sure as hell do!' Now, there was a real man. A real soldier. There was a man who devoted all he had to his duty, no matter how seemingly insignificant his duty might appear at the time, no matter how great the odds.

And you should have seen those trucks on the rode to Tunisia. Those drivers were magnificent. All day and all night they rolled over those son-of-a-bitching roads, never stopping, never faltering from their course, with shells bursting all around them all of the time. We got through on good old American guts.

Many of those men drove for over forty consecutive hours. These men weren't combat men, but they were soldiers with a job to do. They did it, and in one hell of a way they did it. They were part of a team. Without team effort, without them, the fight would have been lost. All of the links in the chain pulled together and the chain became unbreakable.

Don't forget, you men don't know that I'm here. No mention of that fact is to be made in any letters. The world is not supposed to know what the hell happened to me. I'm not supposed to be commanding this Army. I'm not even supposed to be here in England. Let the first bastards to find out be the Goddamned Germans. Someday I want to see them raise up on their piss-soaked hind legs and howl, 'Jesus Christ, it's the Goddamned Third Army again and that son-of-a-fucking-bitch Patton.' We want to get the hell over there." The quicker we clean up this Goddamned mess, the quicker we can take a little jaunt against the purple pissing Japs and clean out their nest, too. Before the Goddamned Marines get all of the credit.

Sure, we want to go home. We want this war over with. The quickest way to get it over with is to go get the bastards who started it. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we can go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. And when we get to Berlin, I am personally going to shoot that paper hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler. Just like I'd shoot a snake!

When a man is lying in a shell hole, if he just stays there all day, a German will get to him eventually. The hell with that idea. The hell with taking it. My men don't dig foxholes. I don't want them to. Foxholes only slow up an offensive. Keep moving. And don't give the enemy time to dig one either. We'll win this war, but we'll win it only by fighting and by showing the Germans that we've got more guts than they have; or ever will have. We're not going to just shoot the sons-of-bitches, we're going to rip out their living Goddamned guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy Hun cock suckers by the bushel-fucking-basket.

War is a bloody, killing business. You've got to spill their blood, or they will spill yours. Rip them up the belly. Shoot them in the guts. When shells are hitting all around you and you wipe the dirt off your face and realize that instead of dirt it's the blood and guts of what once was your best friend beside you, you'll know what to do!

I don't want to get any messages saying, 'I am holding my position.' We are not holding a Goddamned thing. Let the Germans do that. We are advancing constantly and we are not interested in holding onto anything, except the enemy's balls. We are going to twist his balls and kick the living shit out of him all of the time. Our basic plan of operation is to advance and to keep on advancing regardless of whether we have to go over, under, or through the enemy. We are going to go through him like crap through a goose; like shit through a tin horn!

From time to time there will be some complaints that we are pushing our people too hard. I don't give a good Goddamn about such complaints. I believe in the old and sound rule that an ounce of sweat will save a gallon of blood. The harder WE push, the more Germans we will kill. The more Germans we kill, the fewer of our men will be killed. Pushing means fewer casualties. I want you all to remember that.

There is one great thing that you men will all be able to say after this war is over and you are home once again. You may be thankful that twenty years from now when you are sitting by the fireplace with your grandson on your knee and he asks you what you did in the great World War II, you WON'T have to cough, shift him to the other knee and say, 'Well, your Granddaddy shoveled shit in Louisiana.' No, Sir, you can look him straight in the eye and say, 'Son, your Granddaddy rode with the Great Third Army and a Son-of-a- Goddamned-Bitch named Georgie Patton!'

"That is all."
11 posted on 09/26/2003 8:23:50 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed
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To: mrustow
You left out Patton's most important self instruction....."Do not take counsel of your fears"

The rats who would be president are all scared to death of the prospect of battle, including Kerry who though decorated threw his medals away. The fact is all Rats constantly take counsel only of their fears and find lawerly counsel that avoids battle at all costs.

Taking counsel of his fears caused Clinton to ignore his enemies and let them gather strength.

12 posted on 09/26/2003 8:26:58 AM PDT by bert (Don't Panic!)
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To: mrustow
TV commentator Andy Rooney is another who loathes the memory of Patton. Of course, that's not particularly surprising, considering the way Patton wanted to deal with the Communists of his period.

I wonder if Rooney had been recruited or subverted as far as back then, or if it came to him later as he was working his way up the ladder of his postwar career.

Anyway, he was no Ernie Pyle or Bill Mauldin, that's for sure.

-archy-/-


13 posted on 09/26/2003 8:28:49 AM PDT by archy (Keep in mind that the milk of human kindness comes from a beast that is both cannibal and a vampire.)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Sure thing.
14 posted on 09/26/2003 8:32:00 AM PDT by mrustow (no tag)
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To: mrustow
We won in Iraq through an overwhelming advantage in men and materiel, against a woefully inferior opponent. Had we been up against one of history’s great military machines, such as Hitler’s Reichswehr and Luftwaffe, we would have lost.

Sometimes a writer betrays a woeful amount of ignorance is a single stroke.

Be Seeing You,

Chris

15 posted on 09/26/2003 8:32:51 AM PDT by section9 (To read my blog, click on the Major!)
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To: Beelzebubba
So, he really gave the speech! Thanks so much!
16 posted on 09/26/2003 8:42:33 AM PDT by mrustow (no tag)
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To: mrustow
A great film about a great man. I get a lump in my throat every time I see the scene where Patton kisses the Monsignor's ring in Palermo. It is a shame that we can not produce such men today and how anachronistic Patton was. General Bradley suggests that after this we will not be enough to just be soldiers but administartors and bureaucrats, everything.How prophetic.

To General Patton a romantic warrior of the 16th century.

17 posted on 09/26/2003 8:43:41 AM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus,Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: bert
Thanks for recalling that.
18 posted on 09/26/2003 8:44:11 AM PDT by mrustow (no tag)
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To: archy
Well, if Rooney hated him, he must've been a bum, LOL! Tell me, was Rooney a journalist then?
19 posted on 09/26/2003 8:45:55 AM PDT by mrustow (no tag)
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To: msdrby
ping
20 posted on 09/26/2003 8:47:31 AM PDT by Prof Engineer (HHD - I married Msdrby on 9/11/03. --- My Tagline is an Honor Student at Taglinus FReerepublicus!)
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