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Anger at Vatican plan to ban altar girls
Gaurdian (UK) ^ | 24 September 2003 | John Hooper

Posted on 09/24/2003 3:06:09 PM PDT by Lorianne

A heated battle has been joined in the Vatican between moderates and conservatives over a directive, called for by the Pope, that would bar altar girls and stop millions of Roman Catholics around the world dancing, or even clapping, in their churches. _________________

Anger at Vatican plan to ban altar girls

John Hooper in Rome Wednesday September 24, 2003 The Guardian

A heated battle has been joined in the Vatican between moderates and conservatives over a directive, called for by the Pope, that would bar altar girls and stop millions of Roman Catholics around the world dancing, or even clapping, in their churches. The document would also clamp down on adult, lay pastoral assistants. It would forbid priests during sermons quoting from ethical texts other than the Gospels. And it would rank services jointly celebrated with Protestant ministers or Orthodox priests alongside black masses as one of the four "most serious" abuses

In a clear effort to block, or, at least dilute, the measure, a leaked text of the draft was this week published in Jesus, the monthly review of the Society of St Paul, an international Catholic organisation.

One Vatican insider was yesterday quoted by the Rome newspaper Il Messaggero as saying it contained "idiocies so mad as to incite fear".

The document was compiled by officials from two Vatican ministries, responsible for doctrine and liturgy, after the Pope called earlier this year for new guidelines on the way masses are held. Many clerics had complained that liberalisation and experiment in recent decades had left them not knowing what was allowed.

Catholics in western, and particularly northern, Europe are likely to be most taken aback by the Vatican officials' determination to block one of the few means of participation in church ritual for women.

The draft text states that priests should only allow girls to help them at mass if they have a special dispensation from their bishop and there is "just cause", which Italian commentators took to mean an absence of boys. According to the leaked draft, priests ought "never to feel themselves obliged to recruit girls".

In developing countries, where the Catholic church now has most of its members, the most controversial injunction will be the one banning "applause and dance within the place of worship, even outside the celebration of [mass]".

Dance is an integral part of worship in Africa and Asia and has figured in numerous services attended by the Pope. Clapping is also commonplace in Italy at weddings, baptisms and even during funerals.

The draft "instruction" was reportedly tabled in June and came in for stiff criticism at a meeting of the two departments. A final version is due to be published this year.


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: altargirls; catholic; catholiclist; religion
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To: sinkspur
Is it harder to keep young males in the Church then young females?
81 posted on 09/24/2003 3:56:45 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: ArrogantBustard


/eyeroll... if it makes you feel better to believe the church will be alright once alter girls are no more than so be it. I think they have larger problems they need to deal with. This looks like smokescreen to me.

And your outrage should be at those who commited and allowed the acts I only spoke of.
82 posted on 09/24/2003 3:57:38 PM PDT by SouthernFreebird (constipated people don't give a crap.)
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To: Cousin Eddie
Neither of these "reasons" hold water (and pardon the multiple puns).

Puns are fine. Painfully bad leaps of logic are not.

Yes, these excuses are spouted out by many, but so what?

The number of people arguing on behalf of the truth is immaterial. The truth is not.

1. Whether it started out as act of disobedience or not is neither here nor there.

If one is a Christian, one believes that all the pain and suffering in the world derives from a single act of disobedience. Loving God and serving him is consequential. It is not "neither here nor there."

Rosa Parks refusing to move to the back of the bus was an act of disobedience, and thank God for that.

This is the worst analogy I have seen in a while. If Rosa Parks had pushed the driver out of his seat at gunpoint and tried to drive the bus, you might have had a point. As it stands, you don't.

The origins of the practice have nothing to do with whether it is right or wrong TODAY.

In other words, all morality is purely situational. There is no right or wrong, there is only what is "right or wrong TODAY", as you put it.

This practice does not interfere with recruitment to the priesthood.

It certainly does and the statistics prove it. Wherever the practice is common there are next to no seminarians. Wherever the practice is rare, there are many.

Boys can still be altar boys, and if it influences them to become priests, then great.

At the age of 8-12 most boys would rather die than join a club with girls in it. The feminization of the acolytate is a sure way of discouraging boys from joining.

Whether or not there is a girl standing next to a 10 - 14 year old boy (the age of altar servers) during the mass is not going to affect a young man's decision to enter the priesthood when he is 18 - 20.

It affects his decision to stand at the altar in the first place.

Human nature does not change, no matter how radical feminist church-wreckers wish that it would.

83 posted on 09/24/2003 3:58:01 PM PDT by wideawake (God bless our brave soldiers and their Commander in Chief)
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To: Republic If You Can Keep It
The King of England wanted a divorce from his wife and the Pope said no. A new Christian faith who's origin was wanting a certain sin acceptable.
84 posted on 09/24/2003 3:59:16 PM PDT by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: Lorianne
I still don't understand why this alienates women.

Women have suffered from the lack of men devoted to the Church, because the end up ``unequally yoked,'' or with some similar problem.

85 posted on 09/24/2003 3:59:24 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: RosieCotton
I agree and thank you for saying that. I have never approved of girls serving Mass.
86 posted on 09/24/2003 3:59:34 PM PDT by Lovergirl (Prayers for Terri Schiavo. ...Lord, please save Terri Schiavo. ... www.terrisfight.org)
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To: wideawake
You sound learned :)...here is a question for you; After communion is given and you say amen, I was taught not to make the sign of the cross because it detracts from the moment and draws attention to yourself and away from God. My Dad always crosses himself and in our Church it runs about 70/30 who cross themselves after communion......any wisdom?
87 posted on 09/24/2003 3:59:43 PM PDT by hilaryrhymeswithrich (As my seven year old says.....George Bush Rocks!!!!)
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To: mtbopfuyn; wideawake
Dear mtbopfuyn,

We who are devout Catholics do not obey the Supreme Pontiff of the Holy Catholic Church blindly. We obey him with our eyes wide open, embracing with love and joy the Truth of Catholic Faith.


sitetest
88 posted on 09/24/2003 4:00:09 PM PDT by sitetest
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To: Lorianne
Is the reason women are more active in the Church because the Church is ``alienating'' men, or is their a reason that women, by nature, are more likely to be active in the Church[or religion in general?] then men, especially during youth?
89 posted on 09/24/2003 4:00:53 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah; Desdemona
Is the reason women are more active in the Church because the Church is ``alienating'' men, or is their a reason that women, by nature, are more likely to be active in the Church[or religion in general?] then men, especially during youth?
90 posted on 09/24/2003 4:01:11 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah; Desdemona
ping
91 posted on 09/24/2003 4:01:18 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Lady In Blue
ping
92 posted on 09/24/2003 4:01:26 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Republic If You Can Keep It
Like when the King of England wanted a divorce and the Pope said no.

Why did the king & the pope divorce? They seemed so happy together!

Double LOL! It is posts like that which make the board fun.

93 posted on 09/24/2003 4:01:57 PM PDT by BlackVeil
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To: nickcarraway
Is it harder to keep young males in the Church then young females?

Define "young." Most Catholic parents bring their kids to Mass with them, even as teenagers.

I don't know of many parishes that rely on "young males" 18 and over to serve at Mass, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Even in the old days, when I was serving Mass, most Catholic boys were not altar servers, and only a handful ever darkened the door of a seminary, much less ever reached ordination.

This "well, we've got to restrict altar service to boys so we'll have future priests" is an old wives tale, in my experience.

94 posted on 09/24/2003 4:02:08 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from a shelter! You'll save at least one life, maybe two!)
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To: nickcarraway
I don't think barring altar girls is a deciding factor, it is one more factor on the heap. There are other issues in the article which would discourage women's participation, such as women being lay ministers, etc. It's the aggregate of discouragement of women being active in some ministries which I think will become discouraging for many women.

Also, I think the rulings would enforce very ethnocentric ideas of participation. I attended Catholic services in Africa and they were quite lively to say the least ... and culturally appropriate (IMO). I wonder what these people will think of their cultural expressions being banned in Mass, or even on church property?

I don't know the answer, I simply find it interesting to contemplate why the Church would be taking such positions.
95 posted on 09/24/2003 4:03:08 PM PDT by Lorianne
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To: Lorianne
and the lack of men active in their children's religious education.

This is no different than teachers in the schools of America... most are women. Could it be that women are drawn more to teaching, than men are?

96 posted on 09/24/2003 4:03:11 PM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife ("Life isn't fair. It's fairer than death, is all.")
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To: Benrand
I too am surprised by the left-lean of many Catholics when the liberal platform seems to go against almost all Church teachings. I think it has shifted in recent years, though. When our Irish priest made a rude comment about Bush, he noticed a very quiet, cold congregation (and we usuallly love him and laugh at appropriate things) and back tracked pretty darn quickly.
97 posted on 09/24/2003 4:03:49 PM PDT by hilaryrhymeswithrich (As my seven year old says.....George Bush Rocks!!!!)
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To: sinkspur
Dear sinkspur,

"What this article doesn't reveal is that there are also proposed restrictions on communion in the hand and under both kinds, both of which would never fly in the United States."

Oh, I don't know, sinkspur. I think most folks would accept it, especially if accompanied by any decent catechesis.

I prefer to receive in the hands, but I would gladly obey the Church if she instructed me otherwise.

As to the other bit, about restricting quotes from non-sacred sources, I'd be willing to bet that this part has been mangled.


sitetest
98 posted on 09/24/2003 4:04:40 PM PDT by sitetest
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To: Lorianne
I loved being an altar girl. It was fun.

That said, I don't really have a problem with just boys being altar servers as long as girls can still participate in Mass by bringing up the gifts, lecturing, and so on.

I agree that our priests need to remain guys, but there's got to be stuff us chicks can do to be involved in the Church also.

99 posted on 09/24/2003 4:05:24 PM PDT by Hawkeye's Girl
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To: sinkspur
I have enjoyed this thread...except for the overt Catholic bashing from some posters.

I will put in my two cents worth.

If the Catholic Church withstood guitar masses, they can remain steadfast forever.

LOL
100 posted on 09/24/2003 4:05:58 PM PDT by Conservababe
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