Anger at Vatican plan to ban altar girls

Gaurdian (UK) ^ | 24 September 2003 | John Hooper

[Lorianne]

A heated battle has been joined in the Vatican between moderates and conservatives over a directive, called for by the Pope, that would bar altar girls and stop millions of Roman Catholics around the world dancing, or even clapping, in their churches. _________________

Anger at Vatican plan to ban altar girls

John Hooper in Rome Wednesday September 24, 2003 The Guardian

A heated battle has been joined in the Vatican between moderates and conservatives over a directive, called for by the Pope, that would bar altar girls and stop millions of Roman Catholics around the world dancing, or even clapping, in their churches. The document would also clamp down on adult, lay pastoral assistants. It would forbid priests during sermons quoting from ethical texts other than the Gospels. And it would rank services jointly celebrated with Protestant ministers or Orthodox priests alongside black masses as one of the four "most serious" abuses

In a clear effort to block, or, at least dilute, the measure, a leaked text of the draft was this week published in Jesus, the monthly review of the Society of St Paul, an international Catholic organisation.

One Vatican insider was yesterday quoted by the Rome newspaper Il Messaggero as saying it contained "idiocies so mad as to incite fear".

The document was compiled by officials from two Vatican ministries, responsible for doctrine and liturgy, after the Pope called earlier this year for new guidelines on the way masses are held. Many clerics had complained that liberalisation and experiment in recent decades had left them not knowing what was allowed.

Catholics in western, and particularly northern, Europe are likely to be most taken aback by the Vatican officials' determination to block one of the few means of participation in church ritual for women.

The draft text states that priests should only allow girls to help them at mass if they have a special dispensation from their bishop and there is "just cause", which Italian commentators took to mean an absence of boys. According to the leaked draft, priests ought "never to feel themselves obliged to recruit girls".

In developing countries, where the Catholic church now has most of its members, the most controversial injunction will be the one banning "applause and dance within the place of worship, even outside the celebration of [mass]".

Dance is an integral part of worship in Africa and Asia and has figured in numerous services attended by the Pope. Clapping is also commonplace in Italy at weddings, baptisms and even during funerals.

The draft "instruction" was reportedly tabled in June and came in for stiff criticism at a meeting of the two departments. A final version is due to be published this year.

[Lorianne]

Well I'd be interested to learn more about the masculine side of Christianity. I've read serveral articles about Chrisitanity being inherently a feminine religion ... not sure I buy it - but that argument is out there ... and that is why more women participate.

[nickcarraway]

More later...when I get back.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

And my main point does fall in line with yours, IF you believe that an organization sets up its rules and it is up to the members of this organization to decide if they will agree to them or leave and start their own group.

[A. Pole]

The presence of altar girls at my church this past has nothing to do with morality. It is not an immoral act and has nothing to do with situational ethics. You statement is incoherent.

This is not a moral issue - it is a religious thing related to the spiritual order. Same way as the fact that woman was created from man (from Adam's rib) or that woman should cover her head during the worship while man has to uncover his head.

When the first Christians established the Church order their pagan neigbours had priestesses, girls serving in the pagan temples and celebration of gay life. Christians went against the current because they obeying the true God. Now people return to the old errors with the Episcopalians leading the way.

[Poohbah]

I got sound advice from a deacon later.

I do think that a married clergy need not be the end of the church--it has not been the end of the Orthodox Church, and it hasn't hurt the permanent deaconate.

I support allowing the ordination of married men--but not the marriage of ordained men.

[Feldkurat_Katz]

What Biblical citation do we have for the banning of clapping and dancing during the worship of God?

What Biblical citation do we have for Sola Scriptura?

[hilaryrhymeswithrich]

I'd hate to see this logic directed to too many other things. My OB was a man who had never given birth,but his guidance and wisdom were superb. My history teacher in high school made greek civilization come alive, though he was born a few thousand years later. My mother has given me wonderful advice on marriage but has two broken ones herself.

[MinuteGal]

Funny how one single article in the erratic British "Guardian" (based on leaked unidentified sources) excites hundreds of emotional responses as if the draft changes were a fait accompli.

Could it be that two maverick priests from perhaps a hundred members of the two ministries committee preparing the report are looking for attention for their own reasons or agenda? Who knows the circumstances here?

I'm Lutheran, but respect the Pope mightily. I'll wait and see if extremist views actually even make it to the final cut. I doubt it.

Leni

[A. Pole]

What Biblical citation do we have for Sola Scriptura?

Luther's word is not enough for you? :)

[Poohbah]

My logic is that largely EXCLUDING the first-hand perspective of married life and family life from the clergy (the exceptions are extremely noteworthy) hasn't done the Church many favors.

[iconoclast]

I'm sure that this will be taken as a smart a$$ question, but it is only partially so.

What Biblical citation do we have for the banning of clapping and dancing during the worship of God?

SMART a$$?

Quite the contrary!

[dmz]

What was the sin Martin Luther wanted to be acceptable?

[Feldkurat_Katz]

What Biblical citation do we have for Sola Scriptura?

Luther's word is not enough for you? :)

Knowing where you stand, it ain't enough for you either. You do point out in the right direction, though: Sola Scriptura originates in an assertion by one 16th century guy.

[cajun-jack]

well ya'll better get some guns and ammo for the ragheads..us fried chicken eatin southern baptists done got ours!!!!

[Cousin Eddie]

Don't get me started on the liturgy...I'm in full agreement there. Our Cardinal has 'banned' kneeling after communion, but now we have priests that don't enforce kneeling at anytime during the service and others that do. You constantly see half the congregation kneeling and half standing because no one knows what to do anymore, and it's a distration that takes away from your ability to contemplate and pray.

We have to be aware of hidden agendas...some of them are quite insidious. On the other hand that doesn't make all change inherently bad. If anything, I'm very comfortable with the Catholic Church because it is very resistant to change just for the sake of change and doesn't do things just because it's more acceptable to society at large (gay marriage, gay clergy, abortion, etc.). Unfortunately the same can't be said of all Catholics or all the members of the hierarchy.

[A CA Guy]

Martin Luther had issues with authority.

[A CA Guy]

Plus Luther ditched five of the seven Catholic sacraments. Not a plus when you are looking for acceptance.

But Lutherans are good Christians as far as I am concerned.

[Dusty Rose]

Traditionally, the acolytate is the early training ground for priests. The introduction of girls, who cannot be priests, interferes with recruitment for the priestly ministry.

Exactly what does the altar server do? From what I can tell, the young boy or girl processes in and out with the priest, holds the book for the priest to read prayers, sometimes holds the waterbowl and towel for the washing of hands. If men feel inhibited from responding to the call to the priesthood because of the presence of an altar server who is a girl, he certainly does not have a strong vocation to begin with.

Our daughters had no interest in becoming altar servers, but they have helped take up the collection and handed out bulletins after Mass.Any objections to this?

[Feldkurat_Katz]

Exactly what does the altar server do? From what I can tell, the young boy or girl processes in and out with the priest, holds the book for the priest to read prayers, sometimes holds the waterbowl and towel for the washing of hands

That's because the Novus Ordo mass made altar boys largely redundant. Go to a Tridentine Mass and you'll see how busy altar boys can be.

[JBCiejka]

I was raised Catholic, but have not been to church in years. My children also went to a Catholic school back then, which I loved. But after the scandal in RI in the early 80's and nothing was done, I became quite wary of the church. Nothing was being done, and a priest that married us also had made complaints to the bishop and nothing was done. My kids left the school, and after 20 years, finally something came out. I am appalled that the church can be so unforgiving to people who divorce, or have them excommunicated because they work for Planned parenthood, and yet continue to protect their priests from sexual abuse to boys, and the priest in Mass that had two children with a woman and denied it until the DNA came back. Talk about hypocrites.