Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Alan Keyes: On the establishment of religion: What the Constitution really says
Worldnetdaily ^ | 08/26/2003 | Alan Keyes

Posted on 08/26/2003 9:26:03 AM PDT by Keyes2000mt

When he ordered the removal of the Ten Commandments monument from the Supreme Court building in Alabama, federal judge Myron Thompson stated that the issue at stake involved the question of whether or not the state has the right to acknowledge God.

Actually, this formulation is a distraction from the real issue, which is whether or not Myron Thompson or any other federal judge has the right to interfere with state actions that may or may not constitute an establishment of religion.

Someone who simply reads the text of the Constitution of the United States would be thoroughly surprised to learn that a federal judge claimed the right to act in this manner. The First Amendment to the Constitution plainly states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion ..." Since there can be no federal law on the subject, there appears to be no lawful basis for any element of the federal government – including the courts – to act in this area.

Moreover, the 10th Amendment to the Constitution plainly states that "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." This means that the power to make laws respecting an establishment of religion, having been explicitly withheld from the United States, is reserved to the states or to the people.

Taken together, therefore, the First and 10th Amendments reserve the power to address issues of religious establishment to the different states and their people.

An erroneous premise

Now, Judge Thompson – like many federal judges and justices before him – claims the unlimited prerogative of dictating to the states what they may or may not do with respect to matters of religious expression. Applying this supposed prerogative, he has declared the erection of the Ten Commandments monument by the chief justice of the Supreme Court of the state of Alabama to be an unlawful establishment of religion.

This he has done despite the clear impossibility of any basis for his action in federal law or statute. He relies on the erroneous doctrine, repeatedly affirmed by the Supreme Court of the United States, that the First Amendment forbids an establishment of religion, and that the 14th Amendment applies this prohibition to the states. Based on this assertion, he and other federal judges and justices now claim an unlimited right to dictate to the states in these matters.

We have already seen that the actual language of the Constitution does not forbid an establishment of religion. Rather, it forbids Congress to legislate on the subject at all, reserving it entirely to the states. No language in the 14th Amendment deals with this power of government.

Portions of that amendment do indeed restrict the legislative powers of the states, but they refer only to actions that affect the privileges, immunities, legal rights and equal legal status of individual citizens and persons. The first clause of the First Amendment in no way deals with persons, however, but rather – in concert with the 10th Amendment – secures the right of the states and the people to be free from the dictates of federal law respecting an establishment of religion.

Distinguishing rights of the people from individual rights

A right of the people as a whole – not an individual right – is the protected object of the first clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution. Even if one accepts the doctrine that the Bill of Rights must be taken as the basis for understanding the privileges and immunities of citizenship, the first clause of the First Amendment simply secures this right of the people, giving clear constitutional effect to their immunity from federal dictation in matters of religion.

The practical foundation of all the rights and privileges of the individual citizen is the rights that inhere in the citizen body as a whole, the rights of the people and of the state governments. The latter effectively embody their ability to resist abuses of national power. Such rights include the right to elect representatives, and to be governed by laws made and enforced through them. (The right to vote is an individual right. The right to elect is a right of the people as a whole.) Without these corporate and collective rights, there would be no mechanisms for the concerted action of the people, no institutions for their united defense and, therefore, no materially effective security for their individual persons, property and rights against the organized forces of an abusive national power.

The establishment clause of the First Amendment secures a right of the people. Until now, though, many have treated the first two clauses of the amendment as if they are one ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof ..."). This practice ignores both the linguistic and the logical contrast between the two clauses. Where the first clause deals with a right of the people (that is, a power of government reserved to the states and to the people), the second clause deals with an action or set of actions (the free exercise of religion) that cannot be free unless they originate in individual choice. The first clause forbids Congress to address a subject at all. The second allows for federal action, but restricts the character of such action.

By virtue of the first clause, the states and the people as such are protected from federal domination; by the second, individuals are protected from coercion in their religious conduct. The first clause allows the states and the people as such to follow their will in matters of religion; the second guarantees the same liberty to individuals and the corporate persons they voluntarily compose. The first has as its object matters that are decided by the will of the people (i.e., by the will of the constitutionally determined majority in the different states). The second involves matters decided by the will of each individual.

Parallel rights and actions

The failure to observe this distinction leads to the absurd presumption that all government action in matters of religion is somehow inherently a contravention of individual freedom. This can be no more or less true in matters of religion than it is in any other area in which both individuals and governments are capable of action and decision.

The government's power to arm soldiers for the community's defense does not inherently contravene the individual's right to arm himself against personal attack. The government's power to establish institutions of higher learning does not inherently contradict the individual's right to educate his young or join with others to start a school. The government's power to engage in economic enterprises (such as the postal service or electric power generation) does not inherently contradict the individual's right to private enterprise. It is possible for government coercively to inhibit or repress any of these individual activities, but it is obvious that government action does not in and of itself constitute such coercion.

As the U.S. Constitution is written, matters of religion fall into this category of parallel individual and governmental possibilities. Federal and state governments, in matters of religion, are forbidden to coerce or prohibit individual choice and action. Within the states, the people are free to decide by constitutional majority the nature and extent of the state's expression of religious belief.

This leaves individuals free to make their own choices with respect to religion, but it also secures the right of the people of the states to live under a government that reflects their religious inclination. As in all matters subject to the decision of the people, the choice of the people is not the choice of all, but of the majority, as constitutionally determined, in conformity with the principles of republican government (which the U.S. Constitution requires the people of each state to respect).

Subverting the wisdom of the Founders

The Constitution reflects the view that the choice with respect to governmental expressions of religious belief must respect the will of the majority. Unless, in matters that should be determined by the people, the will of the majority be consulted, there is no consent and therefore no legitimacy, in government.

Though it may be argued that matters of religion ought to be left entirely to individuals for decision, this has the effect of establishing in the public realm a regime of indifference to religion. Thus, a choice of establishment is inevitable, and the only question is whether the choice will be made by the will of the people or not. The U.S. Constitution, being wholly republican, decides this question in favor of the people, but in light of the pluralism of religious opinions among the people, forbids any attempt to discern the will of the people in the nation as a whole.

By leaving the decision to the people in their states, and by permitting a complete freedom of movement and migration among the states, the U.S. Constitution offers scope for the geographic expression of this pluralism while assuring that the absence of a formal and legal expression of religious reverence on a national scale does not inadvertently result in the establishment of a national regime of indifference to religion.

When, by their careless and contradictory abuse of the 14th Amendment, the federal judges and justices arrogate to themselves the power which, by the First and 10th Amendments, the Constitution reserves to the states, they deprive the nation of this prudent and logically balanced approach to the issue of religious establishment.

Whether through carelessness or an artful effort to deceive, they ignore the distinction between the individual right to free exercise of religion and the right of the people to decide their government's religious stance. They have, in consequence, usurped this right of the people, substituting for the republican approach adopted by the Constitution an oligarchic approach that reserves to a handful of un-elected individuals the power to impose on the entire nation a uniform stance on religion at every level of government.

The right to decide the issue of establishment is a fundamental right of the people. It is also among the most likely to cause bitter and passionate dissension when the religious conscience of the people is violated or suppressed. That may explain why it is the very first right secured from federal violation in the Bill of Rights.

When they take this right from the people, the federal judges and justices depart from the republican form of government. They impose, in religious matters, an oligarchic regime upon the states. They therefore violate, in letter and spirit, Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution. This section declares that "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a republican form of government ..."

Unlawful usurpation and lawful resistance

In addition to these abuses and violations of the U.S. Constitution, the purblind insistence by these judges and justices on treating religious freedom as a strictly individual right has produced the very consequence that the Constitution's more prudent approach seeks to avoid. They have insisted that government adopt a stance of strict agnosticism, which in effect drives from the public realm all things that smack of religious belief.

This establishes, in the literal sense, a uniform regime of atheism in government affairs. (In the literal sense, atheism simply means the absence of God, and this, in the public realm, is what the federal judges and justices insist upon.) Since, however unjustifiably, they claim for their opinions the force of law, it necessarily follows that they mean to impose this regime by force – that is, by coercion. Thus, in the guise of a judicial effort to protect religious freedom, they destroy it – not for this or that individual, but for the people as a whole.

Naturally, this destruction has aroused anxiety and opposition among the people, who feel and fear the effects of this wholesale suppression of public religious conscience and belief. With each new manifestation of the nature and intent of the federal judiciary's usurpation of their right, the people grow more resistant. Their acts of resistance against this judicial despotism reach higher and more organized levels until they are undertaken in and through the institutions of the state governments.

The state governments are the natural focus and vehicle through which the people organize and declare their opposition to unconstitutional assertions of federal power. Because the federal judiciary cloaks its usurpation in the usual forms and procedures of law, and because Americans are accustomed to taking those forms as evidence of substantive conformity with the law, these manifestations of resistance may be denounced as unlawful.

But in this case, the lack of lawful grounds for the federal judiciary's acts must, in the end, repel these denunciations. The federal judges and justices cannot be acting lawfully when their only claim of lawfulness rests upon the Constitution – since the Constitution's sole pronouncement on the matter of an establishment of religion precludes the possibility of any federal law as a basis for their jurisdiction.

Some may insist that regardless of anyone's opinion of the lawfulness of a court's action, all are duty-bound, in the interest of order and law enforcement, to obey every court order. This is certainly true of ordinary citizens in most circumstances. Even where ordinary citizens are concerned, however, it is not hard to imagine situations in which they would be morally obliged to refuse a plainly unlawful court order. If, for instance, a judge issues an order requiring that at random an innocent person be shot when entering the courtroom, no person, including any officers of the court, is required to obey this order. In fact, like military personnel, they are duty-bound to refuse.

What is imaginable for ordinary citizens is even more conceivable when dealing with high government officials who are sworn to uphold the constitutions and laws that establish self-government in the states, and that protect the liberties of individuals and of the people. If a federal judge orders the governor of a state to take actions that he conscientiously believes violate the rights of an individual or group of individuals, no one would deny that he is duty-bound to refuse such an order.

If, for example, a Nazi regime somehow came to power at the federal level, and by legislation or executive order initiated an effort to confine Jewish or black Americans to concentration camps, all state officials acting under state constitutions that protected individual rights would be oath-bound to refuse unlawful federal court orders that declared people to be of Jewish or black heritage and thereupon ordered their confinement.

What we clearly acknowledge to be possible and even morally obligatory in case of the violation of individual rights must be even more compelling when the case involves the violation of the rights of the whole people. Thus, when a federal judge issues an unlawful order that a state official conscientiously believes violates a fundamental and constitutionally protected right of the people of his state, that official must refuse the order that assaults their right just as he would refuse an order that violated the rights of individuals. It is of no consequence whether the unlawful order comes from one judge or many, from a lower court or the Supreme Court – it must be refused.

Note that the wording here implies an obligation, not a choice. This is important – since it makes clear that the court's unlawful order places the state official in a situation where his substantive duty to the law conflicts with his formal obligation to obey a court order. A regime in which slavish observance of the empty forms of law substitutes for substantive respect for the real terms and requirements of the law clearly represents the demise of law as such.

Judge Moore and the people of Alabama

In the state of Alabama, Judge Roy Moore has refused the unlawful order of Judge Myron Thompson, since it represents a destructive violation of the right of the people of Alabama to decide how their government will or will not express their religious beliefs. This right of the people is the first one secured in the U.S. Constitution's Bill of Rights, and it cannot be compromised without surrendering the moral foundations of republican liberty. Judge Thompson's assault upon this right, and that of the entire federal judiciary for the last several decades, is not, therefore, a trivial threat to the liberty of the people. Judge Moore cannot obey the court's order without surrendering that liberty.

Now, the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, as it applies the Bill of Rights to the states, lays an obligation upon state legislatures, officers and officials to refrain from actions that deprive the people of their rights. With respect to the First Amendment, therefore, it becomes their positive obligation to resist federal encroachments that take away the right of the people to decide how their state governments deal with matters of religion. This obviously has a direct bearing on the case of Chief Justice Roy Moore in his confrontation with the abusive order of Judge Myron Thompson.

His refusal of the order is not only consistent with his duty to the Alabama Constitution, it is his duty under the Constitution of the United States. Alabama Attorney General Bill Pryor, the eight associate justices of the Alabama Supreme Court, and indeed any other state officials in Alabama who submit to the judge's order are, by contrast, in violation of the federal Constitution, as well as their duty to the constitution and people of Alabama.

As a class, therefore, the citizens of Alabama are justified in bringing suit against them for their dereliction, and in seeking reparation for the damage that has been done to their right under the U.S. Constitution. Unfortunately, since the federal judiciary is the perpetrator of the assault against this right, how can the people of Alabama hope for a fair and unbiased judgment from any of the federal courts, including the Supreme Court?

Judicial self-interest

Lawyers will doubtless object on the grounds that the Supreme Court has repeatedly affirmed the jurisdiction of the federal courts in this regard. Their partisan reverence for the Supreme Court's opinions on this matter is wholly understandable, since a seat upon the court, or upon the bench of one of the inferior federal courts, usually represents the highest point toward which their ambition aspires. It is quite natural that they should support claims to a power that they may hope someday to wield.

However, lawyers' insistence that others show the same reverence is repugnant to reason and common sense. In the matter of their constitutional jurisdiction, as against the state courts or the other branches of the federal government, the federal courts – including the Supreme Court – have a strong and direct interest. If judgment in these matters is left to them absolutely, it must always lead to a situation in which the judges and justices sit in judgment of their own cause.

Our common sense joins the admonitions of the Founders of our republic in warning us not to rely on such intrinsically biased judgments. The prospect of expanding their power may distract the federal judges from the facts and merits of the case. This is, and ever has been, a weakness of our humanity.

The people and their representatives

This is why the U.S. Constitution, after enumerating certain cases over which the federal judiciary would have original jurisdiction, gave it appellate jurisdiction "with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make." Therefore, the federal courts are not the ultimate judges of the boundaries of their own power. Final responsibility in this respect rests with the Congress.

Once we take note of this fact, it also becomes clear that thinking about matters of jurisdiction at the constitutional level cannot be considered the exclusive province of lawyers and judges. Though Congress has in some historical periods been composed of a plurality, or even a majority of lawyers, lawyers could never have an exclusionary claim to membership in its ranks. The people can send to Congress whom they choose, including people from walks of life in no way related to the legal profession. It follows, therefore, that the Constitution assumes that people who are not lawyers will have to reason and make judgments about the proper scope and limits to be imposed upon the appellate jurisdiction of the federal courts.

The fact that the Supreme Court affirms the federal judiciary's claim to jurisdiction over the state governments in matters pertaining to an establishment of religion does not, therefore, settle the issue. The Congress must review and oversee such a claim. Since the people choose the members of Congress, people at large, as they consider their election, are required to consider this claim as well.

Our analysis thus far demonstrates that the Supreme Court's affirmation of this claim of jurisdiction is contrary to the plain text of the Constitution: It usurps the right of the people in their respective states to decide their government's stance on religion; it violates Article IV, Section 4 of the Constitution by subverting the republican form of government with respect to this right; and by aiming coercively to establish an agnostic regime of atheism at all levels of government, it destroys religious freedom for the people as a whole and dangerously subverts the Constitution's prudent handling of matters pertaining to religion.

The right and duty of Congress

The text of the Constitution easily allows us to see and understand the federal judiciary's abuse of power and its usurpation of the right of the people in religious matters. It also provides a remedy for this abuse. The Congress must pass legislation that, in order to assure proper respect for the first clause of the First Amendment, excepts from the appellate jurisdiction of the federal courts those matters which, by the conjoint effect of the First and 10th Amendments, the Constitution reserves to the states respectively and to the people. (This language avoids a semantic difficulty, since congressional legislation that explicitly mentioned matters pertaining to an establishment of religion would serve the intention but violate the terms of the first clause of the First Amendment.)

This legislation would restore observance of the Constitution by preventing the federal courts from addressing any issues related to religious establishment (as the First Amendment requires), while leaving them free to deal with cases involving the free exercise of religion by individuals, since these do not fall under constitutional ban on federal legislation. In this regard, the only state actions that come under federal jurisdiction are those involving coercive interference with individual choice in matters of religion. State action that involves no such individual coercion (such as the placement of a Ten Commandments monument in the rotunda of a state Supreme Court building) is outside the purview of the federal courts.

The consequences of congressional failure to act urgently upon this matter are almost too grave for contemplation. State officials will be continually beset by federal court judgments that demand action the U.S. Constitution forbids. Errors of judgment by federal officials seeking to enforce such orders might lead to confrontations between federal officers determined to do what federal judges order and state officers determined to do what the U.S. Constitution requires.

On one side and the other, claims of lawful justification would contribute to intransigence. Problems like this, left for very long without solution, raise the sombre spectre of national dissolution. This, the Congress has the constitutional means and duty to avoid. They should move to do so without delay.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; US: Alabama
KEYWORDS: alankeyes; tencommandments
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 121-140141-160161-180181-191 next last
To: tpaine
How any of us could presume to think Alan Keyes' constitutional knowledge and reasoning skills are superior to yours is a shame. We should be thrashed.
161 posted on 08/26/2003 9:16:40 PM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all things that need to be done need to be done by the government.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 157 | View Replies]

To: djf
[quote]
Not true.
In O'Neil v. Vermont, 144 U.S. 323, 332, it was stated that as a general question it has always been ruled that the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States does not apply to the States.
In Thorington v. Montgomery, 147 U.S. 490, it was said that the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution operates exclusively in restraint of Federal power, and has no application to the States.
[/quote]

Veeeeery Interesting.
Thank you.
162 posted on 08/26/2003 9:29:02 PM PDT by WillRain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 97 | View Replies]

To: Mind-numbed Robot; tpaine
alan appears to lack reading comprehension.
t. paine is clearly not manipulating constitutional reality with sleight of tongue to distort the law of the land... unlike keyes.

the mental dishonesty and double-jointed oral contortionist acts I have seen this week to try and erase that pesky 14th amendment (to save poor deluded j. moore and his marble slab) alone have made me laugh so hard, I have nearly ruined two keyboards.

The key word... I see tied to alan in this exchange is "collective"... as in "collectivist" which betrays alan's TRUE political nature.
sad that freepers refuse to see it as the evil it is.
163 posted on 08/26/2003 9:44:16 PM PDT by Robert_Paulson2 (We need a new war... the *--WAR on GLUTTONY--* to save America...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 161 | View Replies]

To: tpaine
Maybe if alan tried to read that 14th amendment in the mirror, he could undo it's meaning faster... or more easily.
164 posted on 08/26/2003 9:45:01 PM PDT by Robert_Paulson2 (We need a new war... the *--WAR on GLUTTONY--* to save America...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 157 | View Replies]

To: everyone
Alan Keyes stands our Constitution upside down.

From his article above:

The Constitution reflects the view that the choice with respect to governmental expressions of religious belief must respect the will of the majority.

Not so. The will of the majority in a constitutional republic is restricted by the terms of its primary documents. In this case the U.S. Constitution, BOR's & Amendments are the Law of the Land.

Unless, in matters that should be determined by the people, the will of the majority be consulted, there is no consent and therefore no legitimacy, in government.
Though it may be argued that matters of religion ought to be left entirely to individuals for decision, this has the effect of establishing in the public realm a regime of indifference to religion.

Pure, unsupported speculation. No such effect has ever been recorded.

Thus, a choice of establishment is inevitable, and the only question is whether the choice will be made by the will of the people or not.

The 1st amendment says that the 'will of the peoples legislators' "shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" , --

The U.S. Constitution, being wholly republican, decides this question in favor of the people, but in light of the pluralism of religious opinions among the people, forbids any attempt to discern the will of the people in the nation as a whole.

Indeed it does. It also guarantees that states shall be "wholly republican" in their form of government.

By leaving the decision to the people in their states,

The decision to establish offical religions is not left to the majority will of the people at any level, whether federal/state/local, of a republican form of government. The basic rights of the minority would be violated by so doing.

and by permitting a complete freedom of movement and migration among the states, the U.S. Constitution offers scope for the geographic expression of this pluralism while assuring that the absence of a formal and legal expression of religious reverence on a national scale does not inadvertently result in the establishment of a national regime of indifference to religion.
When, by their careless and contradictory abuse of the 14th Amendment, the federal judges and justices arrogate to themselves the power which, by the First and 10th Amendments, the Constitution reserves to the states, they deprive the nation of this prudent and logically balanced approach to the issue of religious establishment.

Offical religions in a 'republic' would be the antithesis of religious freedom.

Whether through carelessness or an artful effort to deceive, they ignore the distinction between the individual right to free exercise of religion and the right of the people to decide their government's religious stance.

We decided our governments religious stance in our founding documents. With the exception of no religious tests for office, and the wording in the 1st amendment, they by & large ignore religion.

They have, in consequence, usurped this right of the people, substituting for the republican approach adopted by the Constitution an oligarchic approach that reserves to a handful of un-elected individuals the power to impose on the entire nation a uniform stance on religion at every level of government.

Every level of our various governments 'stances' on religion should be neutral.
Government is not, & never has been empowered to respect the various establishments of a multitude of different religions.

The right to decide the issue of establishment is a fundamental right of the people.

No such 'issue' exists. Free exercise of religion exists.

It is also among the most likely to cause bitter and passionate dissension when the religious conscience of the people is violated or suppressed.

No such 'conscience' is being violated. Free exercise of religion exists.

That may explain why it is the very first right secured from federal violation in the Bill of Rights. When they take this right from the people, the federal judges and justices depart from the republican form of government.

Nohing is being taken. Free exercise of religion exists.

They impose, in religious matters, an oligarchic regime upon the states. They therefore violate, in letter and spirit, Article IV, Section 4 of the U.S. Constitution. This section declares that "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a republican form of government ..."

The republic still exists, despite the efforts of some to foster sectarian regimes among the states.

165 posted on 08/26/2003 10:04:35 PM PDT by tpaine ( I'm trying to be Mr Nice Guy, but politics keep getting in me way. ArnieRino for Governator!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 157 | View Replies]

To: Robert_Paulson2
The key word... I see tied to alan in this exchange is "collective"... as in "collectivist" which betrays alan's TRUE political nature.

sad that freepers refuse to see it as the evil it is.
-RP2-


I'm amazed that he has swallowed the whole 'hook' of the states rightist, -- state established religion crowd.

Some of these people are really radical. Scary sites that in effect advocate the overthrow of the basics of our constitution.



166 posted on 08/26/2003 10:35:19 PM PDT by tpaine ( I'm trying to be Mr Nice Guy, but politics keep getting in me way. ArnieRino for Governator!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 163 | View Replies]

To: tpaine
Hey as long as it forces our view on the sinners, and criminalizes their immoral choices and beliefs... it's cool right?


There are a lot of folks who find safety in more and more rules. lemme see, rules and safety for the collective, vs. liberty and responsibility for the individual...

167 posted on 08/26/2003 11:52:36 PM PDT by Robert_Paulson2 (We need a new war... the *--WAR on GLUTTONY--* to save America...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 166 | View Replies]

To: Robert_Paulson2
Gotta love that old time collective religion, yasa!


Alan Keyes stands our Constitution upside down [vanity]
Address:http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/971092/posts
168 posted on 08/26/2003 11:57:08 PM PDT by tpaine ( I'm trying to be Mr Nice Guy, but politics keep getting in me way. ArnieRino for Governator!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 167 | View Replies]

To: Robert_Paulson2
Well, hi there, Tonto. I was wondering when you might join the Lone Ranger here. I invite the others to join me in deciding who is most credible, you guys or Alan Keyes.
169 posted on 08/27/2003 5:59:44 AM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all things that need to be done need to be done by the government.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 163 | View Replies]

To: syriacus
I've never seen the Ten Commandments written like that. Since When has "You shall..." replaced "Thou shalt...". And "misuse" instead of "take.. in vain". Is this some new dumb-down/PC thing?
170 posted on 08/27/2003 7:51:25 AM PDT by August West
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Keyes2000mt
bttt
171 posted on 08/27/2003 8:01:53 AM PDT by TEXOKIE
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: syriacus
I'm thinking of getting something like this to hang by my front door.

Hope you have a stockpile of lambs for those burnt offerings too.

"For as many as are under the law (of Moses, by context - BS) are under a CURSE, for it is written, cursed is he who continueth not in ALL things, to do them." - Paul the Apostle

172 posted on 08/27/2003 8:13:01 AM PDT by BSunday
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: BSunday
A similar thought crept into my mind, too. That's why I liked GrandEagle's reply, to my posting this "10 Commandments banner" idea on another thread.
173 posted on 08/27/2003 8:36:06 AM PDT by syriacus (Schumer's in a MALE-ONLY group. It places Duty to God over ALL other duties.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 172 | View Replies]

To: Behind the Lines in CA
it's obvious that the 5th Amendment doesn't apply to the States. Supremacy Clause, and 14th Amendment notwithstanding. I'd simply like to see you reconcile this fact with your adamant position that: It [the 14th Amdt.] was WRITTEN to apply ALL of the BOR's to the states.

One word: Slaughterhouse. That's the case(s) wherein the Supreme Court obliterated the original intent of the 14th Amendment's Privileges or Immunities clause, the clause that was intended to make the Bill of Rights binding on the states. Eventually, instead of overturning the Slaughterhouse Cases--as would have been the prudent course--the Court came up with the practice of selectively incorporating the Bill of Rights via Substantive Due Process, thus leaving us with the mess we have today where some rights have been incorporated and others haven't.

174 posted on 08/31/2003 3:26:33 AM PDT by Sandy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 131 | View Replies]

To: djf
Both of these cases were after the fourteenth amendment.

Both were after Slaughterhouse also. See my above reply. Heck, for that matter, see your #112:

Unique among constitutional provisions, the privileges and immunities clause of the Fourteenth Amendment enjoys the distinction of having been rendered a "practical nullity" by a single decision of the Supreme Court issued within five years after its ratification.
For the record, the original intent of the Privileges or Immunities Clause was to make the Bill of Rights binding on the states. Read the Congressional debates.
175 posted on 08/31/2003 3:47:03 AM PDT by Sandy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 97 | View Replies]

To: Sandy
But the interpretation in Slaughterhouse was that the only effect of privileges and immunities was to equalize the former slaves. Nothing about the fourteenth was meant to prejudice or diminish either states rights, or individual rights. It was not intended to extend the police power to the federal government re: the bill of rights except where former slaves were concerned. And the 'United States' was never granted authority to decide who should or should not be citizens, only to establish uniform rules.
176 posted on 08/31/2003 4:37:00 AM PDT by djf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 175 | View Replies]

To: djf
Besides, the fourteenth amendment was basically declared enacted at gunpoint, I don't think a letter of transmittal declaring it ratified was ever delivered.
177 posted on 08/31/2003 4:41:10 AM PDT by djf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 176 | View Replies]

To: Sandy
Slaughterhouse Cases
These cases decided by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1873. In 1869 the Louisiana legislature granted a 25-year monopoly to a slaughterhouse concern in New Orleans for the stated purpose of protecting the people's health. Other slaughterhouse operators thus barred from their trade brought suit, principally on the ground that they had been deprived of their property without due process of law in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment. The U.S. Supreme Court, with Justice Samuel F. Miller rendering the majority decision, decided against the slaughterhouse operators. It held that the Fourteenth Amendment had to be considered in connection with the original purpose of its framers, i.e., to guarantee the freedom of former black slaves. Although the amendment could not be construed to refer only to black slavery, its scope as originally planned did not include rights such as those in question. A distinction was drawn between citizenship of the United States and citizenship of a state, and it was held that the amendment did not intend to deprive the state of its legal jurisdiction over the civil rights of its citizens. The restraint placed by the Louisiana legislators on the slaughterhouse operators was declared not to deprive them of their property without due process.
Columbia Encyclopedia
178 posted on 08/31/2003 4:48:59 AM PDT by djf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 175 | View Replies]

To: djf
I'm well aware of what the Court said in the Slaughterhouse Cases. You're missing the significance of what the Court did though, which was to pretend that the Privileges or Immunities clause didn't mean what it was intended to mean. Worse than reading rights into the Constitution, what the Court did was to read rights out of the Constitution. That's why, in the cases that you cited (and many others), the Court did not recognize the rights at issue--because it had already declared in Slaughterhouse that the actual intent of the P or I clause was null and void, i.e., Original Intent was irrelevant.
179 posted on 08/31/2003 12:39:22 PM PDT by Sandy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 178 | View Replies]

To: Sandy
I'm not missing anything. The Federal government knew it had no authority to declare the freed slaves to be citizens of those states. And it knew that natural and civil rights were in the domain of powers reserved to he states.So it declared a new kind of citizenship (citizen of the United States), and instead of talking about the BOR, it decided these citizens had "privileges and immunities". The courts have stated several times that "privileges and immunities" is not the same as the BOR. As late as 1889, the state of Louisiana said "A person who is a citizen of the United States is necessarily a citizen of the particular state in which he resides. But a person may be a citizen of a particular state and not a citizen of the United States. To hold otherwise would be to deny to the state the highest exercise of its sovereignty, -- the right to declare who are its citizens."
State v Fowler, 41 La. Ann. 380, 6 S. 602

If the Federal government had authority to apply the BOR to all natural born citizens of the several states, it would have done that.

All the historical evidence is clear. The BOR was written and accepted by the states to be limitations on the newly formed federal government. That is plainly and undeniably stated in the preamble. It amounts to revisionist history to say otherwise

Now, whether that is right or wrong, good or bad, I cannot say. There are some here who launch into histrionics when confronted by such an idea.

But an examination of the historical record does not mean that I, or any others here, want any of the states to deny, deprive, or degrade anyones rights.

In fact that is between they themselves and their state.
180 posted on 08/31/2003 4:09:21 PM PDT by djf
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 179 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 121-140141-160161-180181-191 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson