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Electric Car Towing a Generator - EnviroMENTAL Whacko Alert
August 23, 2003 | Eldoradude

Posted on 08/23/2003 6:06:27 PM PDT by eldoradude

On my way home from work today at about 5 P.M. I saw the dumbest example of environmentalism gone mad. Just east of Folsom Blvd. on Highway 50 I saw a Ford Focus Electric car. Here's the stupid part. It was TOWING A GAS POWERED GENERATOR to provide the electricity to make the car go.

It was a large wheeled generator, the type that uses over three gallons per hour to run. The Ford Focus was going about 50 mph, probably close to top speed. Assuming it needed 3 gallons of gasoline to run for one hour and it traveled 50 miles in that hour, this moron is effectively getting less than 17 miles per gallon!

Can you believe it?


TOPICS: US: California; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: automobiles; california; electricity; environment; ford; moron
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Comment #41 Removed by Moderator

To: Acts 2:38
Like the water-less, flushless toilet.

Had one of those out back when I was a kid; the crescent-shaped window in the door was sorta neat... '-}

42 posted on 08/23/2003 7:36:44 PM PDT by TXnMA (No Longer!!! -- and glad to be back home in God's Gountry!!)
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To: rellimpank
Do you have to take physics to get a liberal arts degree?
43 posted on 08/23/2003 7:55:15 PM PDT by brianl703
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To: Down South P.E.
The battery charger used to charge the batteries in the car isn't likely to be much more than 80% efficient (that is typical for a switchmode power supply). Batteries don't give back what you put into them either.
44 posted on 08/23/2003 8:01:11 PM PDT by brianl703
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To: eldoradude
Your MPG calculation sounds about right, except for one possibility. I'm wondering if the generator produces enough power for the car. He may have to leave the generator rtunning when he gets to his destination to recharge the batteries. If so, the 17 mpg is way too high. LOL.

45 posted on 08/23/2003 8:12:11 PM PDT by HangThemHigh (Entropy's not what it used to be.)
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To: eldoradude
Yes, I can believe it.

Figure that an economical car needs about a minimum of about 20 hp to go 50 mph and one hp equals roughly 750 watts. Therefore he whoud need a 15 kw generator to keep it moving. That is a pretty hefty portable generator.
46 posted on 08/23/2003 8:12:57 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: Down South P.E.
Battery driven cars are indeed ridiculous. Another part of the transportation equation is not just the efficiency of stationary power plants and the efficiency of the conversion of electric power to mechanical. The dead weight of the vehicle has to also be taken into consideration. Vehicles which exhaust their fuel reduce there dead weigh in the course of travelling so they have additional efficiencies which battery driven vehicles which don't reduce their dead weight don't have. As a result, both hybrids and fuel cell driven vehicles are actually more efficient then battery driven vehicles.
The only reason I bring this up is that if it were not for the obsession with zero emission vehicles and the lack of understanding of basic engineering on the part of those pushing battery powered vehicles we would have never pursued that path. As you said hybrids and fuel cells(even if the hydrogen is produced from hydrocarbons) are the way to go.
47 posted on 08/23/2003 8:14:02 PM PDT by Coeur de Lion
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To: rellimpank
A friend tells me of an eviro nut who actually believed that there would be no impact on the enviroment if everyone owned an electric car, completley ignoring the effect that 100 million cars plugged into the power grid would have.
48 posted on 08/23/2003 8:15:50 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants; HangThemHigh
Maybe he's in for a nasty surprise halfway up the hill to Tahoe. :^)
49 posted on 08/23/2003 8:16:42 PM PDT by eldoradude (Boom Boom, out go the lights!)
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To: brianl703
Haven't looked at battery chargers in a while. But, my point is I was just comparing car to car efficiency for a rough apples to apples comparison. We can back them all up the line. For example gasoline has to be manufactured in a refining process and that takes energy. It also has to be pumped, transported and distributed (usually through truck tankers on the highway and more than once - I use to drive these) and that takes energy. You also have to pump it into your car - more energy.

Electricty is generally a little easier to handle and distribute with the existing power grid. Overall there is less waste.

It is true that the efficiency of an overall system is the product of all the subsystem efficiencies. For example in a car that burns gasoline we have the engine efficiency, drive train efficiency, chasis efficiency, etc. all subassemblies with their own efficiencies. Multiply all these together and you get the overall efficieny of the car. The 90 to 95 % I cited relates primarily to the engines -so the overall will be a little less when you factor in drive trains, etc. But I purposely neglected distribution to get a better comparison of the vehicles themselves.

50 posted on 08/23/2003 8:20:32 PM PDT by Down South P.E.
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To: eldoradude
Not only that, the generator is probably putting out about 10 times the pollutants that your car does.
51 posted on 08/23/2003 8:28:22 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: Down South P.E.
Many power plants are natural gas fired. I wonder if it would be more efficient to burn the natural gas directly in an engine to power a vehicle as opposed to using the electricity from a natural gas fired power plant to charge electric vehicle batteries?
52 posted on 08/23/2003 8:33:47 PM PDT by brianl703
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To: Coeur de Lion
The only reason I bring this up is that if it were not for the obsession with zero emission vehicles and the lack of understanding of basic engineering on the part of those pushing battery powered vehicles we would have never pursued that path.

True. A basic engineering rule is - it has to be not only technologically but economically feasible otherwise its no good. Electric cars are neither right now - and maybe never. We could probably technologically design a 100 story building that could sustain a fully fueled 757 collision - but it wouldn't be economically feasible.

53 posted on 08/23/2003 8:35:59 PM PDT by Down South P.E.
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To: brianl703
Many power plants are natural gas fired. I wonder if it would be more efficient to burn the natural gas directly in an engine to power a vehicle as opposed to using the electricity from a natural gas fired power plant to charge electric vehicle batteries?

In general, a vehicle that uses all natural gas is much more efficient and produces less emissions than a gasoline powered car. In fact there are many all natural gas vehicles on the road now. There is a natural gas refueling station down the road from my house.

Natural gas is already in a gaseous state when its injected into the engine and ignited. Gasoline has to be vaporized to some extent when its injected into your engine and ignited. When you start your car up in the morning, you have what's known as a cold start. This is a key point in time when substantial emissions are produced by your car. Natural gas eliminates cold starts and emissions. It also burns hotter and more completely than gasoline.

The primary problem with an all electric vehicle is that battery technology isn't there to make it feasible. An electric motor is more efficient than a gas burning motor. If the technology was there for all electric vehicles it would be more efficient and produce less overall emissions to burn the gas in a power plant and produce electricity to charge batteries because power plants are more efficient than millions of small engines. Electric vehicles are ideal but not now currently realistic.

So how can we realistically (technologically and economically - from an engineering standpoint) improve the efficiency and therefore energy use of millions of smaller cars. We use a hybrid vehicle which incorporates a hydrocarbon fuel (like gasoline or natural gas) engine and a small electric engine combined. Remember the goal is to improve the efficiency of millions of smaller vehicles. The hybrid car that I designed used natural gas and only a very very small battery pack (and by the way the same type of batteries in your car now - lead acid). So the amount of energy and time needed to recharge the batteries is low. Regenerative braking aids in recharging.

You do need some electrical energy produced from a power plant or other source. But the quantity compared to what would be required for an all electric vehicle is substantially less because your only dealing with a fraction of the batteries. Quiet possibly in the near future a couple of solar panels might be all you need. So with a hybrid car you have substantially improved efficiency and fuel use in millions of small cars with a minimal increase in electrical demand.

54 posted on 08/23/2003 9:25:40 PM PDT by Down South P.E.
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To: Blood of Tyrants
If all electric vehicle technology were feasible - which it is not - the overall impact would be improved efficiency and energy use (more miles per gasoline gallon equivalent).

For comparison purposes only (I'm not a tree hugger, I'm an engineer): Gasoline engines in cars are extremely inefficient - 20% or less. Electric engines are very efficient 90%+. So if we could replace millions of inefficient engines with efficient engines we would overall get more bang for your buck (energy useage) with an electric motor than a gas motor.

With respect to power plants: they are more efficient in burning hydrocarbon fuels 35 to 40% than an individual car. So comparitively you have maybe hundreds of higher efficiency power plants as opposed to millions of lower efficiency car engines. Not only that, power plants can also use water, wind, nuclear and solar sources to produce electricity.

Nothing wrong with making engineering improvements over what we have. If everyone thought otherwise we'd still be driving wagons with horses pulling them or model T's or ...Hey if you could buy an electric car that gave you all the price and performance of the car you own today it would be nice - but the technology isn't there and may never be there.

55 posted on 08/23/2003 9:48:59 PM PDT by Down South P.E.
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To: Cobra64
LOL! For her next eco-doofus gesture, perhaps Bab-wah-wah can illuminate the interior of her Gulfstream with roof-mounted solar cells.
56 posted on 08/23/2003 11:29:39 PM PDT by atomic conspiracy ( Anti-war movement: road-kill on the highway to freedom.)
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To: eldoradude
Not only that, the gas powered generator has no emissions control on it...it's probably belching pure CO...
57 posted on 08/23/2003 11:40:33 PM PDT by in the Arena
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To: eldoradude
Homebrew version of this perhaps? The Long Ranger - range extending trailer.

The Long Ranger range-extending trailer converts an electric vehicle to hybrid mode for long trips. The efficient, high specific-output, gasoline-fueled, trailer-mounted generator maintains battery charge, allowing unlimited driving range at speeds up to 75 mph.

The Long Ranger is proven over more than 20,000 highway miles. 20-kW DC output allows sustained high-speed driving without range restrictions. Emissions are controlled with a closed loop fuel control system and a zero-evaporative-emissions sealed fuel tank.

The intelligent BackTracker trailer steering maintains trailer-to-vehicle alignment during backing to avoid jack-knifing. Steering control algorithms enhance high-speed stability allowing reduced trailer and tongue length. Small, light, and short for easy towing, parking, hookup, and storage. Manual start/stop control is available from inside the vehicle The backtracker system keeps the trailer in line with the vehicle while turning - even going backwards!

Low-Emission Range Extender for Electric Vehicles - paper presented at the SAE Future Transportation Conference in 1997 summarizing the technology in AC Propulsion's Backtracker hybrid Trailer.

Specifications:
Output Power - 20 kW DC up to 7000 ft elevation
Output Voltage 240 - 390 volts
Maximum Output Current 60 amps
Dimensions length: 48",(from hitch), width: 48", height: 30"
Fuel high-octane unleaded gasoline
Fuel Capacity 9.5 gallons (40 liters)
Engine Kawasaki 500cc 2 cyl. DOHC 4-valve/cyl, liquid-cooled
Operating Speed 7000 rpm
Drive direct Alternator proprietary design
Controls electronic servo governor, remote start and stop
Maximum Speed (without battery discharge) 60 - 80 mph varies with vehicle)
Highway Fuel Economy 30 - 35 mpg, 7.8 - 6.7 l/100 km(varies with vehicle)
Total Trailer Weight 350 lb, 160 kg
Trailer Chassis chrome-moly tubular frame with torsion-arm suspension


58 posted on 08/24/2003 2:03:38 AM PDT by PeaceBeWithYou (De Oppresso Liber!)
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To: eldoradude
You absolutely should have either gotten a photo, or, if no camera was available, taken down the license for future research. A photo of such ridiculousness deserves to be disseminated throughout the Knowne World.

Nevertheless, it should not be too hard to track this moron down. There can't be too many of these cars around. Just get a cop buddy to help you do research, track the poor slob down, and ambush his next trip with paparazzi glee.
59 posted on 08/24/2003 2:20:44 AM PDT by paulklenk (Freedom isn't free.)
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To: farmfriend
BTTT!!!!!!!
60 posted on 08/24/2003 3:04:52 AM PDT by E.G.C.
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