Carelessness and Casualness in worship

The Middletown Bible Church ^ | 08/19/03 | various authors

[SLB]

It seems to me the answers to all these questions is found in one location: http://etext.virginia.edu/kjv.browse.html#kjvbrowse

What I am seeing in the discussions here is the word of man. We need not listen to men, but to our Holy Father.

[Theo]

Considering how Tommy went from an unbelieving savage who wore animal skins ...

You mean like the animal skins that God saw fit to give to Adam and Eve?

[RaceBannon]

Did God give Tommy those animal skins or did Tommy make a dress of fig leaves Like Adam and Eve from his own hands?

You guys are so stretching things in order to defend this heresy, I am amazed you don't see it.

[RaceBannon]

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/christia/modesty.htm

MODESTY
"Put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ"
(Romans 13:14)

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As children of God we live in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom we are to shine as lights (Phil. 2:15). The society that surrounds us is alienated from the God of LIGHT and RIGHT. They are in the REALM and under the RULE of darkness, loving darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil (John 3:19-20). This unbelief produces the outworking of humanity's bankruptcy before God, as evidenced by immorality, sexual confusion and perversion, LUST over LOVE, shameful acts and actions which are accepted and applauded, encouraged and promoted by indecency, immodesty, nudity, etc.

Society is upset and concerned over acts of rape, sexual perversion, child abuse, child pornography, incest, AIDS, marriage failures, marriage unfaithfulness, etc. Yet society feeds upon and all too often follows the fads and fashions (bathing suits, immodest clothing, etc.) which actually have contributed to the continuance of such things.

In light of the above, it is of utmost importance that we as believers understand what the Bible teaches on the subject of modesty.

The Christian's outward appearance is a matter of concern to the Apostle Paul, particularly in the case of Christian women, for whom he lays down some guidelines: "In like manner also that women adorn [arrange] themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety" (1 Tim. 2:9).

The adjective "modest" literally means "orderly, well-arranged." Women should thus dress orderly (the opposite of chaotic), neatly and in good taste, seeking to be attractive.

"While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear. Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands" (1 Pet. 3:2-5).

The term "shamefacedness" in 1 Timothy 2:9 suggests the idea of modesty and humility. The word means "not to see, not to look at, to turn away their eyes and not to look at others," the quality of modesty implying the result of respect: "that women dress themselves in becoming clothing modestly and properly."

The girl who adorns herself with shamefacedness is the girl who shrinks away from anything that would even suggest immodesty or indecency. She is not willing to look at that which makes for shameful or disgraceful actions. It involves the regard for others which shuns looking at one's wretched condition or circumstance. It involves a sense of shame about one's own condition so as not to look at or be looked upon causing bad or disgraceful actions. She abhors (shrinks back from) "that which is evil" (Rom. 12:9), abstaining "from all appearance of evil" (1 Thess. 5:22), not even speaking of such things (see Ephesians 5:3--"But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints"). She desires to display the Lord Jesus by her life and good works: "And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24).

"Sobriety" (in 1 Timothy 2:9) may be rendered "sound-judgment," and indicates that the Christian woman should give careful thought to what she should wear, how she should dress, and the appearance that she will present to others. She is to dress sensibly. Modesty in dress, especially today, requires careful discrimination. The Christian girl is not to be conformed to the world's sensuous standards, and must set aside many of the fashions of today. At the same time, she ought to display good taste in the clothing she wears, not drawing attention to herself with extremism in either direction: "Be not the first by whom the new is tried, nor yet the last to lay the old aside."

In these days of worldly trends and fads, it is our responsibility (whether male or female) as obedient children of God to reject all that would hinder our ultimate purpose of glorifying our wonderful Saviour. Here is a principle which we might apply personally to ourselves:

Whenever a new style or a new way of dressing or a new way of saying something is seen or heard by me, I will look to see if it pictures truth or error. I will see if it agrees or disagrees with God's Word and God's ways. I will see if it makes clear or confuses and clouds up God's Person and God's Word. I will see if it mixes truth and error. May nothing detract from the message I want to present: "I BELONG TO THE SON OF GOD WHO LOVED ME AND GAVE HIMSELF FOR ME."

Modesty goes far beyond mere dress and physical appearance. It is an attitude of the mind. It is the adorning of the hidden man of the heart. It is a meek and quiet spirit which in the sight of God is of great price. Modesty is displayed by the person who does not want to draw attention to self but rather desires that the Saviour would receive all the attention. By one's dress (or lack of dress) the immodest person is saying, "Look at me! Look at my body!" Compare Proverbs 31:30—"Favor [to make one appear graceful, acceptable in the eyes of others] is deceptive [disappoints and betrays one] and beauty is vain [illusory], but a woman who feareth the LORD, she shall be praised."

The believer's message of modesty should point not to oneself but to the saving Person of the Lord Jesus Christ:

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." (Gal. 2:20)

"I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called [to walk worthy of our high, heavenly and holy calling]." (Eph. 4:1)

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Rom. 13:14)

"And let the beauty of the LORD our God be upon us." (Psalm 90:17)

"According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." (Phil. 1:20-21)

Whether male or female, we all need to realize the problems that are created as one looks at that which stirs the sin nature, the passions promoting SELF, wrongful sex, wrong relationships, etc. As believers we are free and privileged to exercise God's Person by way of the Lord Jesus Christ, TO SHOW THE SAVIOUR, not to promote SIN and SELF. By God's grace may we cover the nakedness of our flesh with the clothing provided for us in the Lord Jesus Christ which is described for us in Colossians 3:12-14 and Ephesians 4:24.

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The Middletown Bible Church
349 East Street
Middletown, CT 06457
(860) 346-0907 More articles under The Christian Life

[Theo]

We're only on this earth for a relatively short period. After that, those who are reborn children of God will spend the rest of eternity in His blessed presence, in Heaven.

Right now, there's a lot of disagreement between your positions and my positions. They seem kind of significant now (although technically, they're "minor" doctrinal issues). One day, however, you and I and other Christian Freepers will look back at this time and chuckle. In Heaven, neither of us will be concerned about who "won the argument" or who had the "most correct doctrinal position." Instead, we'll both be enjoying the Lord and communicating our love for Him, to Him and among ourselves.

In the meantime, I've found this discussion helpful in that I've met a few "worship team" musicians, and we're beginning to exchange ideas. If anyone else out there is interested in sharing your thoughts about serving on your church's "worship team," maybe send me a Freepmail so we can bounce ideas off each other, and encourage each other!

[Theo]

Did God give Tommy those animal skins or did Tommy make a dress of fig leaves Like Adam and Eve from his own hands?

You are not exempt from your own logic, my friend. Using your own logic, I'll pose to you a question: "Did God give the Europeans the suit and tie or did the Europeans make a dress of cotton?" Of course God is not making clothes for people any more, as far as we know. But we do know that He made at least one outfit for humanity, and it was of animal skin.

I'm really, really tired of this discussion. It's true that we're to dress modestly, in an effort not to cause our brothers and sisters to stumble. You're right that humble and modest clothing is a virtue.

[TexanToTheCore]

So many points to make, so slow at typing.

I think we are beginning to see doctrinal differences surface in this discussion. For instance:

RB's church:

Pre church demeanor is thoughtful, worshipful and quiet as an organ plays some beautiful hymns. The conversatons that are going on are in hushed tones. A wonderful, contemplative atmosphere.

TexanToTheCore's church:

The band is warming up (18 musicians), lots of sound floods the church. Praise team members are taking one last run-through, rehearsing difficult passages. The video team is running tests on their cameras, the video production team is in their seats switching from camera to camera, the sound engineers are running tests on the system to make sure that the settings that they worked all week to set up are still good and true.

There are knots of people praying in various locations of the church, some led by Bible Study teachers others led by friends and neighbors. Some are crying others are smiling. You hear laughter over the din.

As the congregation comes in, people greet each other loudly, hugging and sharing their week's experiences. Friends in trouble are asked for an update and prayers break out!

Casual dress, usually business casual, is the rule of the day. Many of the teenagers come in with their friends, dressed in jeans and Jesus tee-shirts. One says "Jesus Rocks!", another "Jesus is the one!". Others have scriptural quotes (our church must have a "tee-shirt budget" that is eye watering, I get several per year).

Deacons are scurrying across the sanctuary (very large)making sure that all is in readiness. Greeters are greeting and ushers are ushing.

Congregants are finding their seats, removing their Bibles from their Bible covers. Some have tooled leather, others "ballistic nylon" and some have denim covers with a country motif. The people take out their pens and hold them in readiness to make notes in the margin of their Bibles.

You can feel the excitement build.

The Music Minister makes his way from the podium to the front of the choir loft, carefully negotiating fiber optic and electrical cables and yells to the choir "Let's go to prayer!". Over the din of the band, he shouts a 2 minute prayer that asks for the wisdom to use our skills to praise Him ,to bring others to Christ, and to move those things in their hearts that keep Jesus from entering. As he finishes, singers lift their arms and and shout Amen.

The Music Minister makes his way back to the podium and calls for the attention of band and choir.

He begins the the intro for the first song, "Days of Elijah". Everyone in the congregation looks with expectation to the choir. Many of the choir singers are now bobbing their heads in time to the music as they stand. As the intro coninues, many singers begin to clap and sway to the music.

He gives the cue for the choir and a wall of sound rolls out of the choir loft, filling every cavity of the church, shaking the rafters and filling every heart with the joy of Jesus. It is loud and it is joyful beyond measure. Some of the choir singers raise their hands as they "get in the spirit". The congregation begins to clap in time to the music, the sound is now overwhelming.

We rock His House, in celebration of our Salvation through Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, and His Grace.

How different our churches are, and yet.....

[TexanToTheCore]

"If Jesus is so popular at your church, I would wonder if it is the Jesus of the Bible at all."

Surely you jest.......

[Hat-Trick]

I've never been to the Texan's church, but after reading the myriad of man's precepts that you've been espousing as Christian doctorine in this thread since post #1, I'm pretty sure that Jesus of the Bible has already given us his viewpoint on men like you in the Gospel according to Mark, chapter 7. When you have a moment please review it and pay particular attention to verses 6 through 9. If you're still confused after reviewing this scripture, here's a hint: you're not any different than those Pharisees.

It's because of people like you that I'm glad the 1st Amendment to our US Constitution was written for people like me.

Hat-Trick

[RaceBannon]

Not at all. Jesus was never popular. The message of the Cross is an offense and pricks the heart.

If it were only true that the Gospel would attract so many people in Faith, right minded, and in truth.

A Good Sermon should be bringing people to their knees, not their feet.

[PleaseNoMore]

Um, Jesus was indeed popular among those who loved Him and followed Him. In case you forget, "...the JOY of the Lord is my strength". There is JOY, PEACE, HAPPINESS, and so much more to be found in the house that calls Him Lord. The message of the Cross also uplifts, encourages, gives hope, reconciles as well as pricks and offends.

[Ol' Sox]

Ahhhh. You've just described my church as well. Joyful, abundant praise and worship. Race's statement that "a Good Sermon should bring you to your knees", supposes that such a sermon is missing from such a service. I'd bet its not.

[nmh]

Race, the spiritually discerned will NOT see what you are saying ... they reject what you are saying since they are not on the same page as God. All your doing is repesting what He desires. Apparently this doesn't meet with their royal approval.

[TexanToTheCore]

"Race's statement that "a Good Sermon should bring you to your knees", supposes that such a sermon is missing from such a service. I'd bet its not."

We have extraordinary preachers. Absolutely the best sermons I have ever heard. Sometimes they bring us to our feet and other times they leave us real nervous, but the overall approach is to sress the Joy of our Lord.

[TexanToTheCore]

"Not at all. Jesus was never popular."

Are you kidding? Jesus was wildly popular, so much so that he began to make the establishment very nervous. He entered Jerusalem with palm fronds to shield his donkey's feet. Trust me here, they didn't do this for people who were unpopular(say...a used camel salesman). They crucified Him to keep Him from overturning the established order.

"The message of the Cross is an offense and pricks the heart."

I have no idea what you are talking about. The message of the Cross is that He died to wash away my(TTTC)and your (RB) sins which is cause for great joy! If the message of the Cross offends you or pricks your heart maybe your heart needs to change.

"If it were only true that the Gospel would attract so many people in Faith, right minded, and in truth."

The Gospel attracts millions of new converts each year. Maybe not your brand, but they are solid converts. Now stop crying in your church lemonade and get out there and hustle! May I suggest Starbucks? I have found it fertile grounds for evangelizing.

Starbucks....really... no kiddin'...

"A Good Sermon should be bringing people to their knees, not their feet."

I will answer this one tomorrow. It's late and I gotta hit the sack. God bless y'all.

[bets]

I hope you're taking me series.

ha

[Quix]

Sadly he doesn't.

And why he doesn't is sadly, a major part of a major point.

[Quix]

Maybe far more series-ly than you expected?